Sunday
Mar142010
4th or FA Cup?
Sunday, March 14, 2010 at 6:13PM FA Cup = immediate silverware, club shop dvd, another chapter written into the history books
4th = CL
CL = more money, better players
More money, better players = possible title challenge
Title challenge = top 4 placement every season
Top 4 placement every season = CL every season
CL every season = even more money, even better players
Even more money, even better players = sustained title challenges
Sustained title challenges = potentially lots of silverware
Simplified, I know. Qualifying one season for the CL doesn't mean there's a guarantee you'll be in it the following. But that's a defeatist attitude. Anyways, to answer my own question:
Both.
Reader Comments (95)
Only Utd and Chelsea will always be up there, Arsenal possibly but I'd say we along with around 3 other clubs will be fighting for 4th and maybe even 3rd from next season onwards. Skys elite will be no more. Unless of course one club replaces Liverpool and it's like to like from there on.
Yeah BOTH, why not? With the amt of money we've spent so far, it's time to get some decent returns!
Despite agreeing with you about fourth place being financially more rewarding, and also potentially much more exciting you do need to realise that there is also the potential for abject failure. Doing what Everton did could cause the club more damage than good, by failing to reach any real stage of the champion's league and losing in the qualification rounds (possible as you could draw a large italian, spanish or german team) you could actually damage the image of the club. We are financially safe but our failure to secure fourth place and a champs league spot over the years has already seen us drop down the pecking order of attractive clubs. Dropping out before the tourny has essentially started could do even more damage than our recent shortcomings have.
Saying that I want both, FA cup AND fourth!
There's no argument. Finishing 4th does not guarantee us progress in to the group stages. Knowing Tottenham, we'd end up losing to an unknown Latvian team.
Winning the FA Cup is something concrete.
Finishing once in the top 4 is great but will mean nothing if we can't do it again and again and again so yes, you do need to be actual title challengers to be in with a chance of becoming a footballing giant. I want Champions League because its a step in the right direction. How else are we meant to play with the big boys in the continental garden?
"It's magnificent to be in Europe, and this club - a club like Tottenham Hotspur - if we're not in Europe.... we're nothing. we're nothing."
FA cup. No one remembers who finished 4th. Trophy everytime for me.
FA Cup. It's actual history rather than a footnote in entering a competition which should only be for Champions rather than just the elite.
I want it all, it's our time, believe. I had my Spurs half empty physce on all year, after this weekend things look a bit different for some reason, can't put my finger on it. I look forwrd to extend the celebrating of our fourth place CL berth by lifting the cup at Wembley, BELIEVE. COYS!!!!!!!
You're forgetting 4th spot doesn't guarantee CL group stage
FA cup!
4th doesnt even garentee CL games!
Wow, I'm actually quite surprised how many of you are for the FA cup. Everyone is looking for a quick hit, a nice trophy win. Then what? back to same old tottenham, Man City pile on the cash, Liverpool wake up and we'll never come close to CL again. This is our best chance of breaking in and grabbing some cash, some prestige and perhaps do something in the World's best club competition there is.
If we finish fourth, sure it doesnt guarantee a sustained challenge, but we'll playing in the effin champions league...THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE (sorry for ripping Davspurs' style there)
theres few champions in the "champions" league. it might seem daunting by comparison to the europa cup, but arsenal are half as strong as they used to be and got to the semis. theres a hell of alot of chaff in there, like Porto, who whilst showing arsenal up for the averageness they are, also showed why the champions league is a hell of alot of money for not alot, and full of shit teams.
what im saying is, its not the great leap some would suggest. even thinking its a great leap is a problem, as it suggests we over achieve.
whatever happens, it must be sustainable.
FA cup no question. No one remembers who came 4th; no medal, just more money to go in to Levy's and his motley crews pockets. As said above, coming 4th doesn't mean you've qualified proper; still have to fight it out against a potentially top opponent and knowing our luck, we'll get some big experience fecker who'll embarrass us over 180 mins live on SKY.
Love the DVD too... ;)
Our problem is that if Citeh get 4th then they will bring in massive players, and someone like Mourinho and the top 4 will become a closed shop again.
We need it this year (or maybe Villa) to keep it open in the future, If LFC fail then they could go donw hill quite quickly as they'd likely lose big names, and need a rebuild. Rafa included.. If City made it they could say £100m for Torres & Gerrad and pay them £150k a week, no problem...if that happened we are doomed.
Until City get CL footy, there is always the chance that players sign for the cash, like Adebayour, and therefore a chance that they will not kick on to become a real top team. If they get it right then we will struggle to compete and will have to hope Chelsea/Utd/Goons decline
edmspurs:
You can't say that you'd prefer the CL simply because this appears to be our best chance (since the last time).
You don't get as much money as you seem to think. Plus as highlighted by many, 4th wouldn't lead to the group stage necessarily.
The FA Cup is more our type of competition, and carries a lot of prestige in its own right.
Break up the monopoly, with our base we'd take the chance and run in the right direction with it. CL all the way.
"The FA Cup is more our type of competition"... Thats precisely the type of mindset that will never take us forward. I don't know about the rest of you guys, maybe I'm a dreamer, but I have much higher hopes for our club. The first step to becoming one of the bigger clubs around is to be in the biggest tourney there is.
Don't get me wrong, the FA cup is a great competition and is definitely prestigious, but we can win that any year, hell, Portsmouth did a couple years back. My point is, if we go after players in the future, we wont get any more of that "Who the eff is Tottenham" Bullocks that we have gotten in the past, our name would be out there on the international scene. For me its not just the money, it represents a big step forward for our club, something we have been striving for for so long.
right i've wrestled with myself for ages on this but i've finally decided that if i HAD to choose between the two and both wasn't an option I'd go with the Champions League spot. The effect on the club would be absolutely enormous if we managed to get into the group stages. I'm sure we'd get a pretty crappy draw as we have no previous in the competition but I genuinely think that over 6 games we could get enough points to qualify for the second round. We have a squad full of international players and could no doubt bring in some top top quality to improve even further. THis would also improve our chances of finishing high up in the league.
I love the FA cup and since I've supported Spurs I've only ever seen us win the league cup twice. It's not a decision I'd take lightly. But the impact is negligible. So we win it this year. We more than likely won't do it again the next year and the win is consigned to history. And that's just the point - FA Cup creates history, Champions League creates a FUTURE.
It's a real shame but this is the way of football these days. It's not ideal, but it is the truth.
"The first step to becoming one of the bigger clubs" - is to have a massive investor.
"the FA cup is a great competition and is definitely prestigious, but we can win that any year" - there's something inherently wrong with that comment!
You are definitely a naive supporter. I'm talking about realistic progression. I'd rather win something and then push on from there, rather than ignore the chance of silverware and presume that getting 4th once would mean we'd get there consistently. Surely if City don't get 4th this season, they'll spend just as much, if not more, in the summer than if they did?
Tom, haven't we done that already? We won the Carling Cup and then everyone was talking about how we'd push on from there. Next season we're languishing in the relegation zone. Winning a cup would be fantastic, the Carling cup was one of the best moments I've had in my time supporting Spurs. But, winning the FA cup would be just that, a win, and thats it. As fox mentioned, its about the future.
In terms of my comment on how "we can win that any year" I did not word that right, what I meant is that we can challenge for the FA cup any year, we will always be entered into that competition. The Champions league is not something that comes our way very often
Also about the investors...We've invested shedloads already mate, and if the plans for the new stadium go into effect, that would be a hell of a lot more.
Champs League, easy. Apparently some of us are prepared to denigrate the quality of CL competition, but consider that if it's so shit now, why aren't we in it? Sure, teams like Debrecen and APOEL would be a stern test for Southampton (or Liverpool, lol), but who wouldn't want to see Barcelona in full fig, swaggering their way to an inevitable 8-0 win.....
...okay, maybe not an 8-0 win, but you can't really say anything about a lack of quality in the CL in contrast to the FA Cup. Furthermore, there's a lot, lot more money involved. The kind of money that let's Sir Alex drop 40 million quid on the likes of Hargreaves and our own sainted Carrick who are, despite their quality (when fit, Hargreaves), squad players.
For my part though, this season the FA Cup is like the 'okay' looking girl who's willing to suck you off no questions asked. The Champions League is more like going on a date with a gorgeous girl who might just might let you put it in her bum.
When we won the CL Cup (CarLing Cup :)), a few years back, ARSEnal fans kept undermining the significance of it, saying it was not a proper cup and it is only meant for the youth players. They went as far as calling it the beer cup that is not worthy of being counted as a trophy collection. If we win the FA Cup now, at least we can rub it in their noses that we have won something major.
Now finishing 4th doesn't exactly do you much good if there is no strong foundation to sustain that achievement. Leeds, Blackburn, and Everton have all snuck in in the past but what happened to them afterwards? Until we can say we are ready to start challenging the likes of ARSEnal, Chelsea, and Liverpool on a consistent basis, then achieving 4th to me is just an over-glorified achievement, one that I will still welcome all the same.
edmspurs - no we haven't. The Carling Cup is nowhere near as important/special as the FA Cup.
Forget the future for the moment. You're looking too far ahead. You seem to think that if we make it in to 4th then we will the season after that. As mentioned, look at what Everton did.
If we had beaten the likes of Wolves, Stoke, Hull etc. then. yeah. I'd be all for the CL spot. But those games proved that we don't appear ready. Consistency is the issue. Those who argue for CL think we're better than we are. We have the potential, don't get me wrong. Just be patient. In the meantime, accept the success of the FA Cup, if we win it.
You've also ignored my point about City.
Jewbanker
That gorgeous girl doe have nice bum
laG I don'y give a shit about what us winning the fa cup means to arsenal and i'm sure they won't either. Tell me how much those bragging rights would be worth if they happen to win the premier league this year which is a very real possibility.
Even if they don't they'll just find some other way of belittling the achievement. Let's worry about what it means for us and THFC and forget those scumbags down the road.
Without champions league we have had to pay over the odds for some ordinary players. The top players, some of whom would have cost less, just won't come. We only need 3 world class players added to the squad and we could be challenging for the league title and that's is really what its all about.
doing both is most def an option to us now, and potentially only 12 games away. But lets not pussy foot around, every single player in our squad would love the opportunity to participate in the CL and get their expensive arses onto some private chartered flights out to europe to play against the best. They may well have an opportunity next season!
Keep going lads, we are getting closer with each passing week.
YIDS.
FM, it is all about bragging rights. Right now we don't have much to brag about other than saying we've won the least important cup in England. Winning the FA Cup shows that we are a club with the ambition of winning titles rather than simply playing sexy football with no end product.
Well, I've conveniently ignored your point about City simply because you're dead right.
I would just emphasize though, I'll take anything right now...really, anything of significance. If we win the FA cup, I will go nuts, and if we do the unthinkable and actually get both, I would let Howard Webb have his way with me, just cuz.
But the arguement is if we had to choose one, and for me its CL. I understand where you are coming from, and agree that most likely, we would fail horribly, and I would drop further into depression. And, the FA cup has a long history, a history that includes some of our great teams of the past, but, the CL just brings so much hope and excitement, something new, something we havent experienced. As for the CL itself, I think that is something that we really need to experience. I have some links with Inter Milan, and have supported them on the side for some time now, and those CL nights are truly special and to see Spurs walking out with that big ball of stars on the centre pitch would be something else.
As for our poor record, if we had beaten those teams, we wouldnt just be contenders for CL, we would be in the midst of the title race, so I think that's putting the bar too high. Even the best lose to shit teams, it happens. We have however, become much more consistent.
Last point, it really is possible to do both, The FA cup run shouldn't really interfere with our CL hopes since we only really have 2 games to play, home to Fulham and Portsmouth at Wembley, so there really is no reason why we couldn't do both, of course, besides the obvious roadblock of April
laG i love to brag as much as the next man but i think we'd have more opportunities to do that if we had CL football next season. Spurs are a big club with great facilities and the only thing stopping world class players joining/staying is that they feel they need to be playing CL football. Is winning the FA cup going to bag us a superstar or keep hold of lennon, modric etc?
Winning the FA cup this season arguably only shows that we are a better team than peterborough, leeds, bolton, fulham, portsmouth and can beat chelsea in a one-off game. I know that's a pessimistic way of looking at a decent cup run but you have to admit we've had probably the most favourable draw in terms of teams played that we've had in a long long time.
edmspurs
Of course I see your point as well, but I feel you're setting yourself up for a fall. I'd rather celebrate winning the FA Cup and looking forward to taking that extra step next season, rather than celebrate finishing 4th. It makes us look like a smaller club, especially considering Arsenal qualify for it every season.
If both was an option, that'd be my choice, but for pure short-termism and glory, the FA Cup is what I'd go with. That said, we're getting ahead of ourselves. If we beat Fulham, then we face a Pompey team who aren't playing that badly and will want to settle a few scores with 'Arry. Then even if we win that then we face Chelsea, a team we always struggle against, or Villa who are no walkover.
And that run in for the 4th place spot is tricky to say the least!
Unfortunately most of our foreign players dont give a damn about the fa cup, probably about as much as we value the coppa italia, or the bulgarian cup. So it has to be 4th place for the progression of the club. football has changed i am afraid. it is something we have to accept when we try and sign top players from abroad.
luka has already said it in an interview.
Yeah, most likely, knowing Spurs, we could debate over which we'd rather have and in the end, get absolutely nothing.
But Fox raises another important issue, which is retaining the great young players we have now. If we don't get CL this year or even next, we can say goodbye to the likes of Moddle, Lennon, etc. CL is the only thing that would give us a chance at keeping them here, not to say that its surefire, there's always a bigger better team to go to (Ronaldo to Real).
All you CL boys seem to only care about the money it will bring us. Who are these mythical players that will be knocking at our door if we do so wonderfully well as to finsh 4th ffs. We have spent more MONEY than Arse**** and Liverpool for longer than i care to remember and for my money we have a better Squad than both of them now, and where did we finish last season?? If money is what you truely want, then go out find a rich Arab and we can all turn up and cheer him down the high road as he waves his cash from an open top bus. I seem to remember someone conected with our club once saying "The game is about GLORY......." Nowhere did he mention finishing FOURTH or having more money available than other clubs. FOOTBALL at ALL levels is about WINNING things. So lets stuff Villa at Wembley in May. Please God.. COYS
couldnt agree more margate, but if i had the choice would go for cl football, football has changed, it is showbiz now. we need the stage and status of cl football, untill we get that we will always be a has been club,
Am i being gready?
But i want both 4th place and the FA cup.
And i think we can do it
i'm not talking about how much money we'll get. it's about prestige. We've been linked with amazing players who have turned us down for the chance to eat at the adult's table - remember rivaldo? Or key players have left to do the same - carrick, klinsmann, berbatov.
don't try tugging on the heart strings with that glory stuff. CL football doesn't end with qualification. We have the chance to compete for the biggest cup trophy in world football and the only way to do that is finish 4th or higher in our league. I don't want us to qualify and be also-rans. I want us to emulate Leeds and go far in the competition. That's REAL glory mate. Knocking Milan, Madrid, Barca, bayern etc out of that competition. Unfeasible but we won't know unless we get into the competition first.
No offence to you Ham but it is not Showbiz to me. It is all about PASSION. It is about that feeling you get when Rick Villa just kept running with that ball, Graham Roberts barges though to equalise with Minutes left, or Parksy leaps to his right to make that save. Gazzas free kick, Ossie curling one into the net at Old trafford on a wednesday night. Klinsmann's 1st goal at Shef Weds. Those feelings are why I go to watch football, you cannot buy those feelings with all the money in the world. And yes I've seen all the Sh*t games too but surely thats why we love football. IT IS NOT just about money.
I'd take the cup. If we got into the Champions' League, then Jenas would neven leave
Winning the league Cup made me so proud i am not ashamed to say i cried with joy and if we won the Fa C up i would sob for weeks its got to be the Cup for us fans. But but the sting in the tale is if we want to keep the vultures of our rising Talent and crocks we need to Finish fourth i said third and the FA cup at the start of the season .Third looks a bit optimistic with Arsoles lucky late winner but fourth will do now Betner has changed in to a thin Striker ?.So Spookmyster its got to be a greedy Both From Mr D spurs.
no offence taken margate, feeling what your saying, loved it all, remember hoddle skinning two man city defenders and smashing it in the top corner, chipping the keeper at watford,
But alas yours and my memories are all in the past. the fa cup was yesterdays plateau. theres a new gig in town and i wanna bit of the action, same passion, same glory,its not about the money. time to move on, gabish.?
Champions League - To Dare is To Do!
It's not a choice. You go for both as we have done and hope the squad can get us over the threshold. The main improvement that matters is the new stadium. Without the increased revenue from a near 60,000 stadium any success we have in either competition will probably be transitory and we will slide back to mid table. Sadly money plays a large but with man city only managing a draw at Sunderland there's every chance we can get that 4th spot and win the cup if only because other teams are just as likely to slip up. There aren't any 100% guaranteed wins in the premier league..
It's about team effort and a determination to win coupled with talent and we have that in abundance this year. Let's have some faith in the team.
passed last season point total yesterday.
Improvement.
Well Ham lets just agree to differ on the CL. Me, I'm just an old tradionalist who thinks that only the champions should be playing in the European CUP (not league) anyway, and no amount of Andy Gray, Talksport or Match of the Day pundit spiel is going to change my mind. Therefore you've got no chance. I'm more annoyed that we really could have challenged for the league THIS season. Those bloody games that we dominated this season with either a draw or defeat to show for it. Thats what we should be aiming for, The bloody league. I was minus three the last we won won it. Anyway. All the best Ham I'm off to watch 24.
Modric said that 4th place was more important than the FA Cup, and I agree with him. We will never get anywhere without CL football, because we need it to attract and retain our best players. Players like Modric, Lennon, Bale etc will not stay for an FA cup. Even if 4th place provides only an opportunity for CL football, it's better to have that opportunity than no chance at all.
Every year we will have a decent shot at the FA Cup. But this may be the last chance we have to make the top four in a long, long time - can you honestly see the likes of United, Chelsea, and Arsenal dropping out? Those three are at least twenty points ahead of the rest of the pack! If Man City make it, they'll buy everyone on earth with the promise of CL football plus massive wages, becoming Chelsea Mk II. Which means we'll start losing players to them too, the way we have to United, Liverpool, even Arse....The top four will be even more unreachable than they are now.
Champions League no contest, the importance players as in top end (fucking love to see him in a spurs shirt, type) players put on playing in the champions league is the crucial factor, Veloso at porto for example, he could carry on playing in champions league with porto every season or win the fa cup with Spurs, he`d stay at porto simples.... the calibre of player we could attract would be of a different class we already invest alot every window so two world class players.... and all my dreams hopes aspirations of spurs challenging for the title will be fulfilled.
CL all the way! The CL has so much benefits that out DO FA cup in the modern game: Progress means we need 2 be aiming to win the LEAGUE- and should be looking to consolidate progress with CL spot. The achievement of 4th FAR OUT WEIGH FA cup- especially if we beat the likes of Villa, City, Liverpool & Everton- this will be massive confidence boost. Sponsorship is far greater with CL. Ability to attract players far greater with CL. I sense PLAYERS would love to play in CL- though some for selfish reasons. The likes of playing Real Madrid or Bayern Munich is too good to turn down. Its true the FA cup would go down on record as things one- but I believe CL place this year would boost the confidence of the CLUB as a whole more than the FA cup. Hope I have made my point- I have been fortunate to see spurs lift the trophy but not to play the likes of Barcelona, AC Milan. Sure this might not happen cos we have to get through qualifying but we must remain positive and look always to progress. The only other plus for FA cup though is are we ready for 4th at this time? Might we be biting more than we can chew? Personally I don't think so because I see this team/squad improving for sure!!
FA. Cup means nothing to most overseas players. The Champions' League means prestige, higher profile for the club and the ability to retain our best players.
No more Carricks and Berbatovs leaving us for what is in most peeople's minds is the big time.
Anythway we don't have to choose, we just keep taking each match as it comes and try to win each one.
Harry hasn't got the resources available at the moment to prioirtise. He didn't even give one of the junior subs a 10 minute cameo when we were 3-1 up against Blackburn.
So its Champions League for me, if we make it to the FA cup final great but its just another domestic bauble at best and means little on the wider stage.