The Battle for Stratford
Saturday, January 15, 2011 at 4:23PM I've shared this on Twitter and Facebook, so only fair I post the link here too. A pragmatic argument for the move to Stratford over at the blog Wisdom for Sport.
Read it here.
The article covers the following talking points:
Athletics Legacy
The Northumberland Park Project
David Lammy
What is modern football?
The Media
The pro-N17 supporters will obviously be focused on the 'modern football' question which is where the basis and answer for not wanting to move away sits quite comfortably. Although the article linked takes a different view point on it all.
All in the name of debate.
Also, if you're unware, tomorrow before the game, protest against the move to Stratford outside the Bell and Hare, from 1pm onwards.
Be sure to visit We are N17 for your anti-Stratford fix and latest news. You can also find them on Twitter and Facebook.
Previous Stratford/N17 articles:
N17: Home is where the heart is
A nail in the coffin of Stratford?
For some, it's a brutal interrogation...
If Stratford Hotspur happens...it ends there (guest blog tehTrunk)
And as an alternative form of petition against moving out of North London and into East London...click and follow: FC Hotspur of Tottenham.
Reader Comments (61)
Good article linked, doesn't change my mind, but really well written piece.
Wisdom for Sport . read it full of anonymous quotes with speculative nonsense. ie The White Hart Lane area would quicly be redeveloped ....jobs etc..This after to speaking to someone. Joe Lewis has no money blah blah blah
I agree David Lammy MP is a complete tool and an embarassment to the area and its needs'
Word the Wise , Wisdom for Football .Conjecture and Hype. Propaganda.
Got to have both sides of the argument. Agree with Nobby, heard all this before. Fans being dismissed for wanting to stay in N17 and called backwards and not wanting to allow the club to progress is missing the point of why we want to stay where we are.
Two things against the article would be the comment about us (anti-stratford) bemoaning lack of success if we stayed in N17.
That and citing Bill Nicholson. Bill Nick lived in Tottenham, round the corner. Never moved.
These pro stratford articles are popping up everywhere disguised as un biased views from outsiders but I think its just the PR machine from Levy in full swing. They have got there new PR guru in and are now doing what they can to change fans minds. The article focuses on all the good points from moving but none of staying, well Im not stupid and won't be persuaded or brain washed by this bollox!
I doubt anyone would or could be brain washed at the moment. If the argument is money and how best the club sits after a move, then Stratford will always - on paper - look the best choice.
We all know it's hardly about money. Well, it should hardly be about money. But alas...
seen them all, read them all. Now heres the result. The majority of West Ham fans who actually have a clue, DO NOT WANT TO MOVE to a stadium THAT HAS A RUNNING TRACK around its perimeter! That is a fact when you read much of what has been said by the West Ham supporters! The Tottenham board have been completely open and honest about their plans to rebuild the Olympic Park Stadium as a dedicated football stadium WITHOUT the running track! This says 2 things. Firstly, the West Ham supporters have taken into account the plight of Juventus, who have relocated to a purpose built FOOTBALL stadium after their tenure in a stadium with a running track.....THEIR FANS DIDNT LIKE IT and DONT WANT IT!!Apparently it destroys the atmosphere for football, and finally the Juventus board have had to listen to their supporters because of dwindling gate receipts. Secondly, it says that the Tottenham board have already recognised this fact, as they have stated their intention almost from the outset that they DO NOT WANT a running track in any new venue they finally inhabit! sorry, got to stop there,need to go out...but Ill try and put it all together later, if I can be bothered, because whatever will happen will happen. I have a sneaky suspicion tho that all this toing and froing is all a smokescreen to assist the "clever ones" to keep us parting with cash! #:)
It's hardly propaganda much like a pro staying in NL isn't propaganda. Don't agree with it's conclusion but it's well written.
Are we not going to rebuild a new stadium on top of the OS site?
Will Spurs own the OS site, the land they would occupy? The stadium? No. We'd be tenants in East London.
Spooky - a thousand thank you's from Wisdomforsport HQ for linking the article to your excellent blog
I was scaratching my head trying to figure out where this spike in traffic came from!
I'm going to add you to my (currently puny) blogroll, hope thats okay.
I'm sorry to dissapoint the conspiracy fans out there, but I'm just a humble Histon fan, not a Spurs plant!
That's what Levy paid you to say ;)
Been a spurs fan all my life, I'm now 59 years old. I like the idea of a move out of Tottenham mainly because its a better location and the over all costs will be reduced to allow further investment in the team. The Tottenham area of London is a dump and if we are to lose our traditional name,then fair enough, Spurs as a name will do me.
After all of the great work that ENIC have done with our club I can't believe that a vocal minority of people such as weareN17 are going to de-rail the best chance our club has got of becoming established as a top european club. Like it or loath it money is the driver behind football success these days - Man Utd, Blackburn, Arsenal, Chelsea all combined expenditure with good management to get their Prem League titles. One without the other doesn't work.
As for Lammy - he can get off of his Socialist Soap Box because my club owes nothing to the local area. We're the main economic centre of the local area and the Trust is one of the most successful charities from any Prem FC. The fact is that if the local council had not dragged this process out for so long (adding £10s of millions to the amount that we the fans will have to pay to fund this redevelopment of WHL) then the project would be under way by now!
As for the name "Tottenham Hotspur" - what's in a name? Arsenal no longer play in Woolwich, Chelsea FC is in Fulham, Man Utd are in Salford, Man City moved from Maine Road, Coventry moved to the Ricoh, Middlesborough moved from Roker Park. I could go on and on and on. Most moves made by clubs are for distances far less than the 5 miles to Stratford.
There's no reason for us not to move other than it's not in the club's best interests. At the moment the Olympic Site looks the better bet on every front except nostalgia.
I hope we stay in N17, but it's about time the pro N17 group stopped alleging we will have to change our name.
We will not and Lammy is using it as a scare tactic. Don't forget he is a politcian.
Has there been any discussion to date on the likely costs around developing our actual current stadium over the course of a number of years and gradually adding to it, or is this just a very expensive way of developing?
Apparently, Tottenham Hotspur is a trademark so we will keep he name if we move. It's just that Lammy feller talking crap.
I blame Haringey Council for the delay in the planning permission for the new ground. We have been waiting 2 years for one thing or another. Don't get me wrong, I have been a Spurs supporter for 40 years and I have wanderful memories of WHL, but we must move on. Had we started development 2 years ago the cost would have been a manageable £300m, it is now estimated at £450m. This is toomuch so we must make every effort to get something that is much cheaper so that we can move on as a club. Stratford is not that too far away. It is 20mins away from WHL with better transport. COME ON YOU SPURS FANS. BE REALISTIC AND LOOK AT THE LONG TERM SUSTAINABILITY OF THE CLUB. BACK LEVY HE KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING.
P.S I was not paid by Levy for this comment !!!!
On and on and on and on.
I think, and it really starts to muddy the waters, the issue is not so much the OS move - it is the fact that as soon as that deal is complete ENIC will sell to AEG and the club we follow now will not exist for any other reason than a line on a balance sheet.
If you think the Glazers are bad - you ain't seen nothing yet.
Stratford is another step towards all the things wrong with football.
I will take any bet now (of under a pound, I am not a bookie) that if Spurs "win" the OS that by the year 2020 our first game of the season will be in the US of A.
Seriously, remember when you were told - it will happen - and if it isn't us to do it first, someone else will.
Same old conversations, no new points. Polls are showing between 70 - 80% against the move to Stratford. That tells me that most Tottenham fans want to stay in the area.
No pro-n17 will be swayed. Thinking about any merits that happen is pointless because its not something we even want to comprehend. Its not something we want to discuss. It shouldnt even be a thought in our tiny minds.
That article is full of shit! Not worthy of being linked on your blog, spooky. The following is what I wrote on his page. Very long, for which...apologies:
I’ll start by addressing the four questions you pose at the beginning of the article.
1. There’s no doubt that the Olympic stadium was misconceived and massively overpriced for what it is (a concrete bowl with no facilities). But we cannot turn back the clock. We are where we are. No point wishing we were somewhere else. Let’s make the best of what we have. It would be utter, wasteful madness to knock down a brand new stadium that has been used for a mere four weeks and then to build another stadium in its place. No sane person would countenance such a sequence of events, let alone promote it.
2. The reason why we are scrabbling away to find a solution now is that five years worth of previous attempts to get football clubs to take on the stadium bore no result. The clubs weren’t interested. So the authorities settled on the next best option – build a stadium that can relatively easily be scaled down to 25,000 after the Games. It’s only in the past year and a bit – since Sullivan and Gold bought West Ham – that the Hammers have gone back to the stadium owners to express an interest. And then Spurs put their hat in the ring too. So really, we have to blame the football clubs for this unseemly scramble.
3. The capacity of any future athletics stadium is not the major issue for UK Athletics. They were happy with the original plans for a 25K stadium at Stratford. The problem with Crystal Palace isn’t the proposed capacity after Spurs have refurbished it. The problem is the location. UK Athletics have been desperate for a long time to get away from Crystal Palace. It is a sleepy backwater with poor public transport access. In order for athletics in the UK to grow – both in terms of attendances and participation – UK Athletics needs to move. Stratford will be perfect for them. High profile; happening; easily accessible; the kind of place that people will go. So of course they’re furious at Spurs’ arrogant suggestion to send them crawling back under the rock from whence they came. London only has the massive and fantastic development of Stratford because of the Olympics. And we only have the Olympics because the crucial and influential athletics lobby within the IOC were won over by the promise of a proper legacy for athletics in the UK. It’s disgusting that football – which already enjoys all sorts of advantages over other sports in this country – should decide that it can muscle in on the act at the eleventh hour and deprive athletics of any real, long term benefit.
4. Both the West Ham bid and the Spurs bid would be worth the same to the public purse. Whichever of the two wins will have to pay the stadium maintenance costs and a set annual rent to the OPLC. There will be no need for further ongoing subsidy whichever option is taken.
Now, as to your surveyor…..
Sounds to me as though this fella is talking about stuff well beyond his pay grade. He might know about the structural integrity of buildings or even what a building is worth. But he knows no more than the average layman about debt finance. So we needn’t take his offerings as gospel.
More to the point, Spurs want the fans to believe the nonsensical idea that it would cost £200 million more to build a 56K stadium in Tottenham than it would to build a 56K stadium in Stratford. And, quite remarkably, it seems as though a lot of people are falling for this whopping lie. The truth is that there would be little difference in cost. Spurs would make small savings by being able to use some of the groundworks already in place at the Olympic stadium. But that’s all.
The £200 million difference in question relates almost entirely to the enabling development elements of the NDP – the housing, supermarket and hotel. Spurs would have you believe that that £200 million is an unavoidable and irretrievable cost. And that’s simply not true. The actual plan would be that that £200 million cost would realise as much as £250 million in sales. And if Spurs decided that they didn’t want to risk playing at property developer, they could just sell the land earmarked for the enabling developments with planning permission.
So, just to clarify, the actual overall cost of building the new stadium in Tottenham is £250 million minus whatever profit Spurs make on selling the housing / supermarket / hotel or just selling the land. So perhaps a £200 million cost overall.
If Spurs move to Stratford, however, they will have to incur the same £250 million cost of building the stadium (minus the existing groundworks they can use) and then they will have to build a new 25K stadium for UK Athletics. That will not come cheap. UK Athletics will not be palmed off with Spurs’ current insulting proposal of a few thousand extra seats (recycled from the Olympic stadium) at their unwanted, inaccessible, old stadium, plus a lick of paint and a little annual pocket money. And I’m quite certain that the authorities – acutely aware, as they are, of what the public reaction will be – will force Spurs to find a far better solution for UK Athletics that at least offers some sort of decent legacy. So chances are that that will cost Spurs another £50 million or more.
Then we come to the issue of the support that Spurs supposedly failed to get from various authorities as they tried to forward plans for the NDP. Again, it seems to me that your article (or your surveyor friend) has fallen for everything that the Spurs spin machine is throwing at you.
Haringey (and Lammy) have supported Spurs all the way through the planning process. They, along with Spurs, have lobbied central government and transport authorities for greater investment in the area’s infrastructure.
They granted Spurs planning permission for the NDP less than two years after the club first announced its plans. In any other borough or with any other developer, it would have taken far longer before consent was granted for a development of such scale. It took Arsenal five years to get planning permission.
What more could Haringey have done? Put their own money in? How? Why? They have no spare money. And it is Spurs’ plans for a vastly increased capacity that will directly lead to the necessary transport upgrades. So why shouldn’t Spurs pay their share?
Every other developer in the country has to contribute to “planning gain”. Hammersmith & Fulham council, for instance, forced Westfield to build a new main line station at Shepherds Bush, a completely rebuilt and much bigger Shepherds Bush tube station on the Central line, a totally new tube station on the Hammersmith and City line at Wood Lane, a new bus depot, roads, a bridge, a new library, countless bicycle bays and probably loads more besides.
Spurs aren’t being asked to contribute even a twentieth of that amount. But why should they get away with contributing nothing towards upgrades that their development will necessitate? The amount they are being asked to pay – about £15 million – is trifling in terms of the overall cost of the Northumberland Development Project. They will undoubtedly be asked to make similar contributions by Bromley council if their plans to redevelop Crystal Palace come to fruition.
As to the intervention of English Heritage and CABE being “ludicrous”, I seriously have to question whether your surveyor friend knows anything even about his own job – let alone other people’s jobs.
English Heritage may be fusty old farts who have a reputation for hating any change. But they do serve a useful and important purpose. They are there as a check on rampant and thoughtless vandalism on the part of developers. Tottenham High Road is in a conservation area. Some of the buildings are nationally Grade II listed. Yes, they might be empty and run down. But why is that? Simple answer: because Spurs kicked out the tenants, boarded up the windows and deliberately let the buildings go to seed in order that they would be able to make a stronger case for their demolition. English Heritage saw straight through the ploy. It was a fair cop.
As to CABE, they rightly pointed out that the initial overall master plan was poorly thought out and the architecture of the new buildings (other than the stadium) was of an inferior quality and had no contextual relationship with the area as a whole. And they were absolutely correct. The revised plans are a massive improvement on the originals. This is proof that the system can work.
As to claims that TfL delivered the final blow by refusing to fund the Victoria Line extension to Northumberland Park……………..that decision was made more than two years ago – before Spurs had incurred huge professional costs by drawing up their plans for the NDP and taking them through the best part of two years of the planning process. So that’s not why Spurs are proposing to abandon Tottenham.
Next, David Lammy.
There seems to be a belief, just because Lammy has only gone public since the proposed move to Stratford was announced, that he hasn’t done anything in the past to help Spurs realise the NDP. Utter nonsense! He too has lobbied for greater investment in the Tottenham area’s infrastructure. As to the ridiculous accusation that he didn’t intervene in the planning process – why on earth would he? It went as smoothly as any developer anywhere could ever have hoped. This is all retrospective spin (from Spurs?), trying to assassinate his character to strip him of credibility.
Next, your friendly surveyor makes some frankly staggeringly preposterous claims about what Spurs could build in the area if they left. He blithely uses emotive words and soundbites like “huge windfall”, “much more lucrative”, “bigger contributions to the local community”, “far more value to the area”.
Seriously, what planet does this guy live on?
You can’t force serious retailers and businesses to move to a depressed area like the Northumberland ward of north Tottenham. Why on earth would they go there? Just because there would be a few new buildings? It simply doesn’t work like that. This fella is living in LaLa land if he thinks he can wave a developer’s wand at a depressed area and magic up regeneration.
For any such scheme to stand a chance in an area like north Tottenham, it is imperative that you have a focus for the development. It won’t do to merely to say that you’ll build new houses and shops and offices. And the only focus point of sufficient clout that the area of north Tottenham will ever possess is Tottenham Hotspur FC. Without them there, any attempt at genuine, widespread regeneration is doomed to failure. And that’s why serious retailers and businesses won’t go anywhere near it.
By the way, if Spurs leave, do you believe that Haringey, having been so publicly shafted and humiliated by Spurs, will be in any mood to grant them planning permission for any other development? Property prices in the area are already very depressed. They will fall further if Spurs leave (and with them any real future prospects of regeneration). If Spurs have to sell the NDP site without planning permission, they won’t get much for it.
Finally, you tackle the issue of identity (oh, and Spurs are nigh on 129 years old, by the way!). You use examples of other clubs that have recently moved to a new stadium, like Manchester City and Bayern Munich……
Come on! At least compare like for like. Manchester and Munich are both two-club cities. There are no internal boundaries within those cities that delineate areas of support. In that respect, they couldn’t be more different to London, with its fiercely territorial football culture.
You talk of the 34,000 on the waiting list being able to get to more games and you talk of cheaper tickets if Spurs move to Stratford. But this would be equally true of a redeveloped White Hart Lane. And, if the will was there, we could have that sooner than we could have the stadium in Stratford.
You also touch on another whopping lie that Spurs are keen to propagate. You say that Stratford would be more accessible for the majority of fans. David Keirle actually had the nerve to claim that it would be more accessible for the “vast majority” of fans. But the truth is that the majority of Spurs fans travel to home games from north London and the counties immediately north of London – Hertfordshire, north Essex, Bedfordshire and south Cambridgeshire. So I’d estimate that, at best, Stratford would be more accessible than Tottenham for 40% of fans and less accessible for a further 40%, with little or no change for the remaining 20%.
You say that, if the move to Stratford doesn’t go ahead, Spurs fans cannot complain if they lose their best players and fall ever further behind. Well, of course, that’s another worst case scenario with which Spurs would love to scare us. But for those of us who are steadfastly opposed to the move, the worst case scenario is far scarier than that. For us, the worst case scenario is that our club will cease to exist once it moves to Stratford. We will be entirely disenfranchised .
Because, make no mistake, Spurs would have become a franchise just like any professional American sports team.
What I cannot understand is, why was this (N17) scheme such a good idea 9 months ago with all the publicity about the bowl affect of the stadium where the fans were almost part of the team and that the stadium would be the most intimadating stadium on the planet.
I would love for the N17 scheme to be built and the more I think about it the less I like the Chairman to have such a MASSIVE change of mind so late in the day. I DON'T fucking TRUST LEVY ANY MORE.
This potential move is just creating a rift between fans in a season where on the pitch Spurs have had so much success. Finally, finally we are doing well in the league and now we could potentially be moving to a completely differnt part of London. In time, probably 50-60% of Spurs fans will accept it. But if you lose even 40% of your fans the club loses its soul. If we can't afford the Northumberland Redevelopment Project then why move at all? Spend the money on players and stay in White Hart Lane. Yes, a new stadium would be fantastic but if it means ruining the football club financially or emotionally then surely it's not worth. For the first time in decades, we are playing like a team that's got the potential to be something truly special. We can't ruin it now.
Sadly, I believe there's a good chance Levy's bid for the OS site will be successful, mainly due to West Ham's bid being weaker than a Jenas tackle. The formation of Stratford Spurs - once you realise how pathetically built the OS is, and, owing to its track, how utterly unacceptable it is as a football stadium - clearly makes more sense from a business point of view. Therein lies the problem for me and many others, business.
'Football is business now' is a statement heard all too frequently nowadays. Terms like 'the club's brand', 'profile' and 'global attraction', terms which were unheard of a decade or so ago, have crept more and more into football vernacular. Businesses, in their very essence, exist to make money.
If the top flight of modern English football consists of 20 businesses, what an epic fail it has become, especially when you consider most clubs see survival in the league and having 'manageable debt' as some kind of success.
I see the formation of Sratford Spurs as the culmination of a slippery slope of commercialism which began in earnest when the shelf was ripped out and replaced with 'executive boxes' leaving little more than a long window seal behind.
For me the only real winners in football now are the TV companies and sponsors who have leached onto the popularity of the game and have slowly drained it of any romance, dignity or real meaning. I'm quite sure the players aren't complaining either.
Depressing as it is, I see two eventualities for the fans:
1. Staying in Tottenham and continuing the charade that THFC still exists mainly for the enjoyment, and entertainment of its fans but still keeping its soul and identity.
2. Embracing Stratford Spurs and the success (which isn't guaranteed) at all cost mentality. Realising that we're in a competition which boils down to who has, or can borrow, the most money; admitting that supporting a top flight football team in general is really a bit of a mugs game.
So pleased to read your post JimB. I was very upset by the comment the architect Keirle the other day about the debate being ill-informed. The club must take much of the blamefor (at best) not being forthcoming about its plans. I find it interesting that the 'revelations' of the last couple of days have come from an architect and a legal adviser rather than Levy himself. Thanks for your article, which nails many of the myths that surround what has been going on, and which through repetition on the internet are being accepted without question. Your article deserves a much wider audience. I have found this whole debate vey painful for a number of reasons, and as you say, for many of us a move to Stratford would end in complete disenfranchisement. But the latest assertion by club that it will keep its name after a move is proof, if it were needed, that truly we are dealing with people who have no shame.
Maybe those who are so in favour of the death of THFC could take on the OS in its 25k capacity guise and form their own Stratford Spurs team. leaving room in WHL for some of the imaginary 34,000 yid army in waiting.
I really dont care what benefits there might be to moving to stratford even if it ment winning the league i still wouldnt want to move there. If they do its the end of tottenham and the end of me having anything to do with them.
mark747, if the fans, who haven't even been consulted on any of this yet, are to have any say this, your stance, which I share, is the only one which will have any effect.
There has been so much talk about this and I think part of the reason is that we're being fed selective information from both sides and honestly I think a lot of us just think we want to stay in Tottenham, of course we do, but at what cost?
I think we need someone independent of the club to figure out the costs, is it worth redeveloping the lane, is it that much better for the club to move to the OS?
As a set of fans we need someone to take the emotion away and give us the facts - it boils down to this in my view
How much do both projects cost in their entirety?
How can the club play for it?
What would be the impact to the club for paying for the new ground in both cases?
How does it impact the fan - ticket pricing/availability?
What are the genuine strengths and weaknesses of both projects?
I know all this sounds very cold and rational but whatever we want it's got to be about the club going forward and not getting saddled with an impossible debt, if NDP is affordable then everyone will back it, why is it not?
The only reason I feel some pro-stratford feelings is that if it's £200m cheaper then that must be better for the club and surely none of us would be happy seeing the club sitting with a £450m burden.
what happens in 10 years or so if the premier league starts to lose its worldwide appeal?will the barclays funding drop and what impact will it have on spurs? how about the pay tv rights? will that funding drop? what effect will that have on spurs?if the financial bubble for english football slows down what effect will that have on spurs?for now forget stratford... whats the possible long term financial and stable business model for spurs to continue if outside revenue stream slow down? you can already see the financial constraints on clubs like man u/chelsea/arsenal/liverpool... even the transfers windows are becoming slow with not many clubs splashing the cash around...coys
if we move I´ll start supporting Arsenal, I hate east London..
Serie A imploded. Can quite easily happen over here.
@ TMWNN, 10.41
Great post.
Sad but true.
@ Denmoza
Agreed. One of the most frustrating things about this debate is that Spurs have such easy access to national media. They also, of course, have spinmeister Mike Lee (the man who helped win the Olympics for London and the World Cup for Qatar) working for them behind the scenes.
Consequently, a large proportion of Spurs fans are getting their facts only from Spurs sources saying that the NDP is simply not deliverable (despite the fact that it appeared to be perfectly deliverable a few short months ago until Spurs suddenly did a U turn).
I can only hope that, somehow, those of us who are utterly opposed to Stratford can make our voices heard.
But I suspect that our best hope will be for West Ham to win the bid.
Depressing as it is, I see two eventualities for the fans:
1. Staying in Tottenham and continuing the charade that THFC still exists mainly for the enjoyment, and entertainment of its fans but still keeping its soul and identity.
2. Embracing Stratford Spurs and the success (which isn't guaranteed) at all cost mentality. Realising that we're in a competition which boils down to who has, or can borrow, the most money; admitting that supporting a top flight football team in general is really a bit of a mugs game.
Bingo.
hey jimb too much to read all of it but tell me where do YOU get your facts and figures from and why should we believe them any more than the figures being bandied about by the spin docs?
I don’t think anyone can be surprised a board of the TH PLC is looking for financial profit. Very appreciated responsibility imposed by nature on businessmen. One that requires making money rather than causing loss and jeopardising other people’s efforts and work.
Great. However if it goes as far as Stratford bid the instant question arises to explain the move. Who is putting those people under such an enormous pressure in their pursuit of profit so that they consider something like relocation. I only hope that in prevailing manner these are not very fans. Supporters who can’t find pleasure in watching football itself anymore. Fans who demand other kinds of bizarre entertainment from the business. Fans that consciously or unconsciously make the board seek alternative solutions outside Tottenham to please their clients. I hope not.
Otherwise this generation will have a great chance to be remembered as one that exchanged the Lane for alleged comfort of travelling, drinking or using modern urinals in the new place. The Lane is the best that Spurs happen to possess. In terms of football of course. Provided football is still an essence of this present dispute and future action.
'Who is putting those people under such an enormous pressure in their pursuit of profit so that they consider something like relocation?'
Some would have us believe that it's the North London boogey man, Lammy, and his terrifying tank top wearing lieutenants.
It's a good question. You could tell Levy was genuinely excited about the NDP, but his and those around him baser natures look to have been too strong in the end.
This debate is becoming tiresome, but lets try and sum up.
Somebody made an interesting point on the article posted by tehtrunk. He's said, himself included, that its the hardcore who want to stay at WHL (im paraphasing for him, he's a idiot). Idiot aside, I think he maybe on to something. The hardcore live it more than the rest of us, like the statement at the top (which will change by the time you read this) Spurs is like your girlfriend dumping you every weekend...well atleast it was, until they started winning (now its like giving her one up the bum every weekend). The hardcore want the misery back: 'were not going to a shiny new stadium 5 miles down the road with easier transport links, I like my shite commute to WHL, it makes me miserable. If you do make us go to a world class stadium 5 miles away I will go to Tottenham marshes and watch non league football in the pissing rain to get my misery hit'
Can we stay at WHL? Well the simple answer of course is yes, but I think anyone with a couple of braincells can see we will probably be having this conversation in 10 years time, while the season ticket waiting list swells at 40,000.
As for the fans who say our club will die if we move. Your wrong, you may want to keep it traditional but Darwin proved at the highest level inability to move with the times, evolve and adapt, will actually lead to your demise, but we've seen it happen with empires and major business also. Footballs changed, Man City seem to have the the middle easts GNP at their disposal, we have to change if we want to survive. I believe Levy will make us the greatest team in London if you let him...Oh of course, you want your misery back!!
@ nomorewhllegends
I don't ask you to believe me. I only ask that you don't allow yourself to be spoon fed by the club. Look into the facts for yourself.
It surely can't have escaped your notice that a few, short months ago, Levy and co were very bullish about the NDP and now, all of a sudden, it's a complete non starter that would ruin the club. Do you really believe that so much changed so quickly?
That Spurs ARE (yes, it is a fact!) promoting whopping lies about how building the stadium in Tottenham will cost £450 million (compared to a cost of £250 million in Stratford) and about how, according to them, travelling to Stratford will be easier for the "vast majority" of Spurs fans should surely send your alarm bells ringing.
Well done, Chubb, for completely misunderstanding the arguments of everyone with whom you disagree.
The silly thing is that it is all so unnecessary.
Everything that you say you want for Spurs...................we want it too. But the thing is, we could still have it if we stay and build at White Hart Lane.
The NDP was completely feasible a few months ago. Now we are expected to believe that it would ruin the club. Go figure.
Well, you swallow everything the club tells you if you want. Frankly, unlike you, I don't like eating shit.
Ha ha ha, good effort Jim. We are still waiting to hear how much Haringey want in the S106. Trust me, there will be set back after set back and Levy is clearly a pro active individual who doesn't let the grass grow under his feet. By the way Iv'e not read anything official from the club in months on this matter. I seem to be getting Karen Bradys shit forced down my throat whenever I read about us linked with the OS. I have actually looked at the situation and made up my own mind.
The Section 106 agreement is already written up. We are only awaiting agreement. Spurs have been asked to contribute a total of about £15 million.
As to Spurs not making any comment on the stadium, did you not read the interview earlier this week with David Keirle, project architect and a THFC Vice President?
No, I think I read a couple of articles with a few quotes, do you mind pasting a link to the full interview.....
Moving isn't the problem. Moving into East London and onto someone else's patch is.
TMWNN
The death of THFC would be as a result of plums like you and others that are hell bent on fragmentation of our envied unified amazing club and supporters.
Shame on you all
wisky tom,
I would never presume to judge you just because you are in favour of a move to Stratford. I accept that that is your opinion (though I hope that you have, at least, made an informed choice rather than merely tacitly accepting what the club have told you).
Please afford those who are opposed to the move to Stratford the same respect. We never wanted it to come to this. But, as far as we are concerned, we are left with no choice. We think that some things are more important than the pursuit for success.
I will still wish Spurs well if they move to Stratford. I just won't go to games any more.
Chubb - I'm not sure how spooky feels about people osting links on his blog. But just google up David Keirle and you should find it. If I recall, the article I read was in the Independent. I think goal.com also reprinted it in full.
Wrong sub, VDVD shd have come off for Defoe. Palacios was doing well.
FFS. NO!!
I'm not in favour of a move - I want to stay at the Lane - However' IF' we have to move, I'm not about to start throwing fucking spaners !..... I'm going to support my club and in turn Levy!!