Loyalty points 'controversy'
Friday, April 20, 2012 at 9:06AM Loyalty points system. As we know already the new system will award supporters who have been attending games home and away in very recent seasons (only the last four seasons will count for loyalty points starting from the 2012/13 campaign) and will roll on with each passing season so that it's always rewarding fans who are going to games here and now. In other words fans who currently have disposable income to afford to go to games. The issue is that the fans who have been going for say 10, 15, 20 years but recently due to work or family have not been so active will lose the privilege of 'cherry picking' matches to attend. The argument is, consistent loyalty over a decade should continue to be awarded rather than only appeasing the ones with the cash right this second. Although to counter that argument the club would say that it's only fair that if you're loyal and attending games in recent seasons then you should have the same right to get tickets to big games because how could you possibly compete against someone with 1000 points?
In a discussion on Twitter someone cited 'cartel' in reference to supporters that have accumulated a hefty amount of points meaning they will never fail to get a ticket for say Arsenal, Chelsea away or for a game like Stevenage in the Cup. Although some fans might not attend frequently and cherry pick games many that have built up a substantial amount of points over 10 years + still go to games consistently. But then how could the club possibly appease them also? They can't. This system is geared towards the present rather than the past. They will lose a big percentage of their points and find themselves competing with fans who haven't been attending as long as they have.
There's no right or wrong way to support Tottenham in terms of attending games. Some of us can, some of us can't. People who have only recently started to attend home and away games are no lesser supporters than the ones that have been going for ten years. Everyone has to start somewhere. Still, the same should apply for the ones that have spent a life time attending but not very recently who will lose the ability to be awarded because they can't find their way to games as often as they've love to. Equally so the ones that have been attending for an age and continue to do so who will be on a level pegging come 2013 with only the recently active ones. Some of our fans consistently attended matches up and down the country when we were utterly woeful (the 1990s anyone?) so should loyalty still be awarded rather than it being reset? Have they not earned the right to be prioritised?
What are your thoughts on all this? Fair? Not fair? Is the club looking after its legacy supporters or just the ones who have cash in their wallets?
Reader Comments (21)
I can see what the club is trying to do, but they should have incorporated some of the shit years. Instead of doing it for 4 years , maybe do it for 8. I actually KNOW fans that only came back 4 years ago BECAUSE we were a better side. These same fans won't be coming to games if we end up shit again. I am lucky in that I have been consistantly going home and away for 15 years so shouldn't be affected too much. However, one of my brothers has been going home and away his whole life. 3 years ago he lost his job, and could only get to home games (as he had already paid for his season ticket). He was out of work for a year, and now has another job, but he has to work every other Saturday, which means he can only get to home games. He is the type of person I feel very sorry for, as he has no choice in it. He will end up with less points than someone who has only been going for 4 years. Thats loyalty for you.
It's a tough one. Clearly loyalty over the long term is important, but having a massive points total means that it's harder for new/younger ST holders and members to break through.
The 4 year cut-off is a bit harsh. Although it may have been impossible for them to implement, if it was my decision I'd apply a tapering effect. I.e. points over 5 seasons old lose 0.2% of their value, points over 6 seasons old 0.3% etc. until eventually the points expire. That way, recent points will always be worth more, eroding the ability of fans with old points totals to cherry pick the longer they do it for, but still recognising that past loyalty should contribute to their ability to buy tickets today.
I am a member who is likely to be a season ticket holder within the next 3-4 years (with or without new stadium), even though it will benefit me massively, I don't like it much - it is a slap in the face for those who have been following the spurs for years.
I've little doubt they've taken this route ahead of the new stadium when they will have to attract a whole new bunch of season ticket holders and this will give them the opportunity to tell people that they will be able to get tickets for european / derby away games.
agree with Phischy
just make new points worth more than old ones
its costs a lot more to go to matches these days so those who attend now will infact have given the club more from a monetray point of view
then again, money shouldnt be the be all and end all
but unfotunately, it is.
This new scheme will benefit me personally, but I don't agree with it. I'd love to get tickets for Arsenal/ chelsea away, but I recognise that there are people who've travelled away week in and week out for years who are more deserving.
It sounds another thing wrong with how Spurs treat loyal fans. As a ST holder for 5 years I still find it hard to believe I only have 150 points or so including going to the odd away game. I am having to pay £850 this year yet only recieve 20 points (i think). I am never able to go to Chelsea/Arsenal away yet if a member goes to Bolton at home they recieve 5 loyalty points???? I went to Sunderland away a few years ago and only recieved 3 points??? Where is a suitable system in that? Travel 10 hours to get 3 points or go to a home game and get 5????
I'm in the other camp, as someone who prior to this year was only able to go to a few games a year as I lived outside London. In 2010 (most of it) I was ill and didn't go to any.Since moving to London in the last few months I have been to as many as I could (within reason). I don't expect to compete with people who go to all 10 games in a season, or who regulary go to away games. But I have at this moment zero chance of getting to any Cat A game. I have tried. they are sold out before I even log in.
To the guy above, aren't ST points *different* to non season ticket points. So therefore your points are competing with other ST holders? i.e. Bronze/Lilywhite have a seperate points scale.
We're very odd in that our supporter base comes from a wide area around London due to successive generations of Tottenham residents moving out to the suburbs. Arguably other teams eg. Blackburn, Portsmouth, Norwich dont have this problem because the only people who support those teams generally live in the immediate area. Although I'm pleased that the team is doing well, it must be said that the atmosphere created by a new generation of 'prawn sandwich brigade' fans is not doing us any favours. Spurs is going the same way as the library and if we're not careful the only people able to attend games will be the filthy rich. Tottenham is not the rich mans club-you have chelsea and arsenal for that. I for one appreciate the decadence of white hart lane. The lane used to be the one of the most initimidating grounds in the country almost on a par with millwall at one point. How could we let our great atmosphere disappear?
The problem with Phischy's idea is that, it seems to be the fairest way of doing it and makes perfect sense.
Bring back queuing a couple of days before the big game. That'll sort the sheep from the goats.
Hit me the other day that matches at Wembley in the future will be all ST and corporate affairs. So these LPs are going to make a difference if we have moderate success in the future.
To explain I expect we will have about 40k ST holders and 5k corporate STs at the new stadium so ST holders will go to LPs and members have fuck all chance of buying a ticket through the club for a semi, let alone a final. Black market prices will rocket.
The mixture of STs, members and even non-members at Sunday's match added to our support and atmosphere. Who's to say we won't be losing the loudest part of our support for these type of games?
I have seen plenty of away games go to General Sale this season, I wonder if this new system will encourage more ST holders to buy tickets and sell them on (face value of course), I know I am considering it.
After all this could mean an FA cup final ticket or similar in 5 years time.
I think it is a fantastic idea... I have been to every single home game this year and 4 away games... prior to that I wasn't living in London this still didn't equate to enough points to go to wembley! I think that if you follow your team throughout the year and go to the boltons and stevenages then you should be rewarded...
Every time you renew your membership you get 15 loyalty points... so someone could be a member for 10 years and go to just the arsenal game every year and nothing else which would give them 160 loyalty points... Is that more loyal than someone who has been to 25 games in one season which would come to about 90 loyalty points? I think that if you have followed your team throughout the season then you should be given the opportunity to enjoy the bigger games
Firstly, Daniel B is correct. ST points are totally seperate to members points. New season ticket holders start at 0 points regardless of how many members points they have. I lost over 350 members points when i started my ST. Secondly, this situation has been coming for a while with all the talk of waiting lists and a new stadium, the club were always going to have to change the current system. Personally i will be worse off for the change, i have had a season ticket for seven seasons and around 450 points but most of those were earned before the four year cut off point. While i don't agree totally with the change its tough on people to expect them to shell out £800+ and then tell them they have no chance of getting an arsenal and chelsea ticket for the next 5-7 years. ( 7 years in and i've still not got enough points for an arseanal ticket!)
To MattSSP, as Daniel B said you're not competing with members when it comes to loyalty points. A season ticket holder with 1 loyalty point will get a ticket to an away game ahead of a member with 1,000 loyalty points.
"recent" or "new" fans are the fans the club want. They're the fans every football club wants. They're the fans the moan about the guy in front standing all the time. They're the fans who moan about how loud the drum we used to have is. They're the fans who sit quietly waiting to be entertained. They're the fans who boo at half time when it's 0-0. They're the fans with what the club want most of, an abundance of disposable cash.
The club need to rethink this but they never will. The theory behind it is a valid one. I've been going since the early 90's but due to babies appearing in my life this season has been the first that my attendances have dropped significantly. My initial plan was 4 games but due to illness this has actually turned out to be only 2, those being Bolton at home and Stoke away in the Carling Cup. Cat A games as you can see. I easily got a semi final ticket but had to sell it on at face value to a fan who didn't have enough LPs but had been going all season. I firmly believe he had as much right as I did to attend that game because of his attendance this season.
However, this is where the problem happens for me. My attendances will more than likely be limited for the next 4 years until the kid goes to school and I no longer have to find £800 a month for nursery fees. That means come the time I can afford to attend again I'll be in the same situation as I was when I first started attending over 20 years ago and miles behind someone who has decided to follow spurs during one of their more successful periods. Is that fair? Personally I don't believe it is but there's nothing I can do about it.
The club should've discussed this with the fans and a compromise made so everyone who wants to attend games gets a fair crack at it. For example, why does anyone have the right to attend Arsenal away if they did it the season before? How about alternating etc? There are plenty of other actions that would've been fairer to all concerned but why would the club bother wasting time trying to find them.
of course the real solution to it all is to bring in some sort of photo I.D. with ST's so the many that sell them on are found out and new STs are sold. This would remove some of the waiting list as well as a lot of the STs who have vast LPs.
I know it is slightly off-topic, but I'll go on anyway. How about a separate ticket allocation for fans who travel from abroad just to watch Spurs games in WHL? I have done this about a dozen times now, including UCL games in other countries last season, and I'd do it more frequently if I had any chance of getting tickets for bigger games. I'm sure there are many fans like myself around Europe, or even further away. AC Milan does that via an agency based in Switzerland, which is how I found tickets for San Siro last year. I live in Greece.
Tricky one.
Firstly I must state I am not a 'new' fan, I am in my third decade of support, I have LPs in the 200s built up over the last decade or so and would be a beneficiary of the system remaining as it is. BUT it is not feasible, sorry but its not.
To use a LP system based on an entire lifetime effectively blocks new fans from getting tickets until they are middle aged at the very least. Clearly ridiculous. New fans arent the enemy, I intend to start bringing my son to games as soon as he is old enough but with the system as it is, he can rule out getting a ticket for a big game until he is an old man - and who will be blocking the next generation - you and me.
So stop whining. Its life. And the only realistic solution unfortunately is to have a cut off point for how long loyalty points are valid. Maybe a tapering system would work, but personally I think if you have accrued enough points over a 4 year period to get a big game ticket basing it on those 4 years is warranted - arguable have you not supported that current team more than the fan who got his points watching Mido and Freund? You still need to accrue your points watching games after all.
And would people stop stop whining about 'new' fans like they arent worthy - we should be glad that people actually choose to follow Spurs in this day and age when Sky sports and the media provide 24hour advertisements of their select band of favoured sides.
Bring back terracing and deciding whether or not to go the match on a Saturday morning depending on what time you get out of bed.
Oops. Showing my age there.
To be honest, there are plenty of fair methods for the club to deal with this. How about just employing a 'career average'? Number of points accrued in total, divided by number of years with a season ticket. That way, the number of years you have been a member is largely irrelevant, giving newer fans more opportunity to obtain tickets, whilst not punishing those longer serving fans who might have missed more games over the last couple of seasons for one reason or another. Those with the highest 'average loyalty', win.
Personally, as drwinston mentioned, I think the new method has been developed because the powers that be want a new group of fans coming through who have greater disposable income and are easier to deal with/market to.