The want for more
Thursday, September 15, 2011 at 12:17PM The fact that I'm sat here trying to work out whether I'm pumped up for the Europa League probably tells you that there is something wrong. It's a big tradition at Spurs, is Europe. Bill Nicholson had one or two things to say about it. More so the fact that once upon a time we were tagged as Cup Kings. The 1980s seem a distant memory these days, in this not so brave but bloated rich modern era.
Undoubtedly, everything outside the Champions League and Champions League qualification has been devalued. FA Cup romance has been stood up more often than not. The League Cup dumped by most, only becoming important if you somehow stumble your way into the semi-final. Although most would desire to win the former, you sort of make do with the latter because it's still silverware and it's at Wembley. Both have taken the mantle of simply being bits on the side for the Sky Sports era 'Top Four' and plucky teams that punch out of the industrial strength paper bag that covers them.
That doesn't mean our 2008 victory should ever be dismissed, probably because of that semi-final against the red scum followed by that wonderful day out against the blue scum. We were winning games we were not meant to be winning. Dismiss it, no way. Footnotes in history are exactly that, forever captured in our honours list and in memory. But still, its an afterthought for most, a third prize for the truly ambitious. For everyone else it's an echo from the past.
Football, at its highest level, is geared up to make the strong stronger. If you're truly ambitious then winning the title has to be the ultimate goal. If you're in a position to do so then by default you'll have enough ammunition to gun down other targets (like the domestic cup competitions). Which is why if you consider the long term, top four should be the priority.
I want us, at some point, to win the title. It's a ridiculous statement, much like wanting us to qualify for the CL once was. I'm not asking for ten years of dominance here. Wouldn't be able to live with the glory hunting. Just one grand old push, anything comparable to the 60s will do, then back down to earth again.
Okay, so, here's where I start to walk and sink through quicksand. I can never give a definitive answer to the question that asks 'Silverware or Top Four?' mainly because I have been somewhat corrupted by the prestige of the Champions League. I'll do my best to fight through the relentless hypocrisy and contradictory statements. But expect my explanation to be one consumed with struggle.
I love Tottenham. Unequivocally. There's probably a deep rooted fear of success, festering in my subconscious, that doesn't quite want me to want the club to turn from eternal pretenders to seasoned champions. In a perverse way I like the fact that with each passing decade we win something, be it a domestic cup or a European one. We might not have been blessed with an empire or a dynasty but what we've achieved in our past playing the football we've played with the players we've had - it has been and remains magnificent. We're a big club in terms of our fanbase. We're a big club in terms of the manner of some of our achievements. But still a small club with a big heart when compared to the true giants in football.
So you (and I) would never scoff at the question asked, 'Would you prefer silverware to a top four place?'. Shouldn't scoff. You don't ever say no to a good thing. Football is about moments, and moments made up of Cup final goals and dramatic winners are what makes supporting a club, any club, special. It's not just John Crace that fears success will reshape a clubs character and therefore its supporters. But Tottenham have yet to cement such stability flying in the heavens. We are once more looking up, attempting to take off.
The issue surrounds the effort required to attain said good thing. But the effort is just if the finale is Ricky mesmerising his way through the City defence, a winning penalty save in a European shoot-out or coming back from 1-0 down to win 2-1, be it in the FA Cup or League Cup.
Winning a domestic cup competition or the Europa League should always be the aim as the momentum will carry forward into the league games, and vice versa. Alas, the constraints of three competitions and the league with the additional interference of 'deemed to be more important' fixtures and injury issues means that we're only likely to strike lucky (in terms of a run) in perhaps just one of them. And if the club wants to progress to a point where top four is a given then league games will have to take the mantle of priority.
The buzz generated and then witnessed during our battle for fourth and then our début in amongst Europe's elite tells me that such an adventure - in modern football - is more fulfilling from one game to the next than a run in the League Cup. Even if the chances of winning such a competition (CL) are extreme.
So before I disappear under the quicksand, what is it I want exactly from the club, players, manager? Hand on heart...I want us to win every game. Reality is, we won't always be set-up to do so. And some of these group games in the Europa League will be sacrificed by blooding the youth in mixed up selections (perhaps stronger home tie line-ups will see us through comfortably). Once in the latter rounds, a buzz (of sorts) will generate enough momentum to see us grow hungry for more and everyone pull together for the greater good (that's the creation of history by way of winning something).
Belief, desire, hunger...it's never going to come together with brute strength and Spurs swagger if we're under-strength, so it rests all with hope. Personally, I'm already thinking ahead to next season and a new man at the helm. Levy is probably doing the same thing. And for all this talk about Luka's head not being in the right place, our manager should perhaps consider his own state of mind. Or at least engage his brain when he opens us mouth.
Harry for England? All I know is Harry can talk for England, he's that good with soundbites. His way is to downplay everything. All we can do is hope it doesn't have a detrimental effect across the squad.
With the future in mind, stability is key. A top four place will mean the war chest (we do have one right?) will be of far greater power if we're in the CL next season compared to perhaps a return to the Europa. Even if we're not in the CL, perhaps the new gaffer will not dance around the wall he has built to protect his ego and instead speak for us, the fans, with complete transparency.
I hope we win a Cup. But I'd prefer us to reclaim that opportunity of further growth and progression to be stronger domestically and thus give us the base to challenge on more than one front and once more give us access to another adventure up in the heavens.
I guess this is me accepting the sacrifice for this season at least.
Moses parted the Red Sea, the big show-off, lived off that for a bit, probably even got a t-shit commemorating the event...then followed it up with wandering around lost, clueless with what direction to go in. Life as a Spurs fan might simply be to accept pockets of success punctured by barren and transitional seasons. I can live with that. But I'd prefer to feel the way I felt when we smashed Inter 3-1 at home or beat Milan 1-0 away.
We might not be perceived as a giant. But we can compete with them. We just have to start behaving like one - no matter the game, no matter the opposition and no matter the competition.
Easier said than done. Hence the sacrifices.
Now someone please reach out and grab my hand before I sink into the depths.
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Reader Comments (42)
Enter the bad Ade? I'd rather not, thanks very much!
I have been wondering for years why we enter the league when we have no chance of winning it.
If we just played a few cup games we would have loads of silverware.
Serious point though, one of the few things 'Arry said that I agreed with at the time was when he said we should be challenging for the title. If we are actually aiming for 4th, that is not really an ambition is it. Even Eddie the Eagle Edwards (google it) probably had a fiver on himself for a gold - when did you last bet on Spurs winning the league??
By you, I mean anyone, not just you
I think we should be trying to win the Europa league and the 2 cups, a couple double would be immense, hell winning the europa league will be our biggest achievement since the early 80's, thats nearly 30 years!
Success breads success, look what it did for Porto in the Jose era and what it has done for AVB.
In no world are we too big/good to care about a european cup, or any cup for that matter!
As for the questions posed- I've never understood why it's wrong to want your cake and then also want to eat it...what use is a cake as decoration? How about we try and win the damn pot and also try and get into the CL again? Surely that's not too much to ask for from a talented squad of players like what we has? I also fail to understand why there is such a huge difference between playing Thurs/Sun and Weds/Sat. Same number of days between games, no? Or is my abacus on the blink?
I wholeheartedly agree about stability being the key. People were calling for Harry to be out after 12 months! Even before he finished 4th - and soon after! Barring diabolical league finishes - which 4th & 5h AIN'T, you should give a manager at least 4 seasons. It took Alex Ferguson (not comparing them!) 4 seasons to get Man U going, and never looked back since. However, Harry may choose to move on, then fair enough. But then what I just said applies to the new guy.... Would Ancelotti consider us? Or is he waiting for the Liverpool (Kenny walks out yet again) or the Arsenal (Wenger finally loses it) or the Man City (you mean that you did not win the Champions League?) or even the Man U gig (heaven forbid, but Sir Alex is no spring chicken)? For some reason Italians like London, and end up staying here. I digress... Please should stop calling for managers' heads when they are doing fine...
TonyRich:
I think people are less drawn to Harry because he seems to have little or no loyalty towards us and to most informed football people is a shoein for the England job at the end of the season. Its all well and good wanting to give mangers 4+ years to build and get it right but when the manager is not going to be around for that long, what is the point?
@1 - yes it is the same number of days in-between games, but there is something depressing & draining about ALWAYS playing on Thursdays & Sundays. Everyone else has just played against Milan & Barca, and you watched it at home, and then you play Shamrock Rovers on Thursday, when all the good teams have a day off. You scrape through that match, and then you play an early game on Sunday - where many ex-pros have said that it often is difficult to play well in a lunch-time kickoff on a Sunday. It normally is a day off, and you are missing that routine - perhaps even socially with the family. It is just awkward...
Ossie: Harry is not the most loyal of managers - we saw that with the Portsmouth - Southampton - Portsmouth thing. But it is all speculation. By the time the England gig comes around, it becomes approx 4 years. It is not 100% about building for future, it is about not sacking a manager prematurely. Alex Ferguson finished bottom half 2 or 3 times before he won the FA Cup. He was WELL sackable. Sometimes you need to take the odd disappointing season in hope that the next one is good. That is the point. Harry will go sooner or later, so let nature take its course. Draw up a list of potential replacements in the meantime.
If the players and the club aren't pumped up for the CC and the EL then I don't think the supporters can be.
Great European night against Hearts recently? No
Great NLD against Arsenal last year in the competition that spawned the 5-1? No (although ticket price suggested otherwise)
Everything is geared towards Top 4 and CL now, the problem is last year, when we should have been aiming for Top4 again somebody forget to tell the managers and players this and our one season of CL football, our adventure, became just that. Dreams of CL glory overtook the nitty gritty of beating teams like Blackpool and Wolves.
Nothing wrong with selling out to the CL dream. Times change.
Axing of a manager does not solve the club's problem at all, since it is not the manager that's playing the game, but the players. If victorious, the manager is praised & if the club fails,most blame is directed to the manager.
What contributed to Spurs victories against AC,Inter & some of the the top 3 was consistency.A lack of consistency, fitness/skill ( applicable to some players) & injuries has played a sigificant part in our failure. The Europa cup is "silver" & of significance for us to pursue & win as we have players that are capable of achieving this.
T's.
Tactics and Trophies.
We've a manager, who, allowing for his soundbites and arm round the shoulder management, is tactically poor. Not naive, just lacking.
So the ability to win a series of matches against differing types of teams and the way they play, be it European or domestic in order to win a trophy at the end, is very difficult with HR.
The Special One, for all his faults and transgressions knows tactics. It's what he does, that's why he wins trophies. ( As does Ferguson by the way, in case you wondered how come Manure have an extension on their Trophy cabinet every decade!)
We need a manager like that.
I agree with a lot that has been said above.
However, from my point of view the best game I've ever watched was when we beat Man City at their ground to quality for the Champions League. The goal from Crouch was the one goal that I've celebrated the most. If the club set a goal to qualify for the Champions League and then they succeed at this (over being good for 38 games) then to me that is worth more then being good for 5 or 6 games to win a cup.
I just think it was because it was the moment that we proved a lot of doubters wrong, and I knew it would leas to the Champs League, and how proud did we all feel watching our team in that.
I can understand the want for a trophy, but supporting football is more than that, it's about when you succeed over all of the odds.
The ambitions of a football club should be expressed by its president/owner.
He should set up priorities and should staff the club with competed personnel and players.
Playing in an international competition and eventually winning it should be the target of every club that wants to increase its supporters world wide as well its revenue and to attract ambitious domestic and foreign players and investors.
If he goes to England then:
a) No pay off to HR from Spurs
b) Pay off to THFC from England.
If we were to sack him we'd probably have to pay him £5m. If He asks to manage England, then the FA will be paying us compensation...say maybe £3m.....its an £8m swing
As for Europe, in a group of 4, even the NextGen lot could beat Shamrock h & a, a couple full strength/strong teams at home to PAOK and the Russian lot and thats 12 pts without over-using the key players. we are then into the knock out with a transfer window to utilise.
I would hope that Levy & Redknapp (& FA) reach some sort of confidential agreement about HR joining England so we can then make moves towards appointing a new man and have the replacement lined up for a seemless transition....then come Jan that new man could at least be consulted on purchases, so we can spend on say Leandro and not find ourselves with a player unwanted by the new manager.
wake me up if we get to the 1/4 final of Europa. the rest is bascially rubbish. although i'll be at the home games. and to be fair it and the Carling do give youngsters a platform (didn't do the goons much good mind you).
Bostock???
Crouch's header against Citeh ment a lot.
Woody's header ('facer') against the Chavs ment more.
getting rid of HR will only cost £2.5m as he is on a rolling one year contract, hence we will ge tlittle compensation from the FA, the further costs of getting rid of harry is his team.
Although a ruthless way would be to let jordan, bond just rot on their wages and wait until they do something wrong and sack em (won't be long with bond).
Jordan i believe will stay as long as the new man can accomodate him.
I also believe spurs have a man in mind and this man is not available until next summer(maybe jan)this is indicated by recent transfers (no long term financial burdens).
The most underlining thing is HR courtcase which all police and lawyer friends tell me he will go to prison for two years as he has had his chance to come clean and did not take.
With this in mind it is likely HR will end up at pompey at best
Didn't that 'Russian lot' beat that little known Spanish side Barca in the Champions League at the Nou Camp only the other year! Think they take us to pieces if we play the 'kids' against them! Promising talents or not unfortunatly...
I suspect much of the angst that surrounds supporting the club is a result of the changing culture of soccer and the fact it is now a global game. When I first started supporting Spurs they were my local team and they represented my community and we cheered as they battled other local communities and the fight for the FA Cup was great as we faced other teams across the country ---and how we all supported the occasional giant killer as they beat one of the giants. Today the game is global and is a media phenemenon. Messi , Ronaldo, Schneider, etc.are heros in any country in which the game is played, when previously I doubt if any of us could name an overseas player. The modern game is about cash and the ludicrous salaries which players get. So we spend the transfer window arguing about whether we spend 30 million or so for someone who may or may not flourish. And whether a star transfers from one club to another becomes more than a movement of skills. It is as much about one set of supporters being one-up on the rival set. The Modric saga was as much about that as anything else, and many of the comments that were made were absolutely disgraceful.. The result of this change of culture is that every snippet of news from the club is set against this background of cash and glory on the international stage. So no one really cares about the domestic scene and even the Premiership is interesting ionly n that it decides who qualifies for the Champions league. It is not that all the modern game is bad but we certainly have lost something in throwing out past values.
i am still firmly camped in the do not get rid of harry camp. Not because i love him or am not sick of having his name pop up every 5 mins in the media.....that doesnt even bother me. I dont hear what he says on the training ground or in the dressing room - none of us do - and to be honest, thats the only thing that counts.
I am bemused and pretty embarrassed by anyone who is or has been calling for his head at any given time. Every single person who comes along and criticise's him for EVERY little mistake he has made puts the blinkers on and refuse to give praise where praise is due. It is contradictory to claim he is the reason we lose and when we win its in spite of him.
I am EXCITED to see or kids, our youth get a run out. They will be wearing the lilly white shirts of tottenham and good fucking luck to the lots of em. They all deserve to be given a chance and I am excited about seeing these potentially new stars giving their all. This is massive for the club - The same peopel complaining now are probably the same people calling for us to finish 6th last year and forgo the competition either way. Its complaining for complaining sake and i am getting sick of it
Finishing 4th and getting to watch us massacre Inter Milan at WHL is THE BEST I HAVE EVER HAD IT AS A SPURS FAN.
Watching us come back from 2-0 down to beat Arsenal at their home is THE BEST I HAVE EVER HAD IT AS A SPURS FAN.
Beating Liverpool twice in one season is THE BEST I HAVE EVER HAD IT AS A SPURS FAN.
There is in fact only 1 season I can fully recall having it better as a spurs fan than last year and that was the year before under Harry Redknapp.
the fallacy of us getting so close to the CL in the 05-06 season is there for all who wants to see it. We played a record number of low games that season i believe for any team, ever in the EPL. Just 40 games. all our PL games and one in each of the cups.
Our inability to compete for $$$ is the one thing holding us back. NO manager would change that. The belief that you can send a team out without painstaking tactics and allow the football to do the talking is old school. It Bill Nicholson old school and i love it. That is tottenham. Sometimes we have the players to do it, sometimes we dont. But one thing i know for sure is that 2 years of relative stability, a run in the CL and hoodoo after hoodoo broken makes me happy with what i am getting form my football team right now.
I dont think we'll qualify from the Europa league group. I probably wont find out till some tme in Feb though as I genuibnely pay no interest at all to it. Its a defunct competition for all but the clubs from the 'minnow' leagues (basically everything other than England, Germany, Italy and Spain)
Like you spookey I dont like the fact that cuips have been so dramatically devalued by the lure of the top 4 and CL football. But we cannot turn back the clock. Its happened, we have to deal with it. And that means playing the second string players in the second string cups.
Silverware is silverware people say, but is it? Its like the old thing about trees falling in woods. If nobody really notices that if we were to win the UEFA Cup or League Cup, is there any point in actually winning it? I fear that there isnt.
As for the pont above about Thurs - Sun being the same as Wed-Sat, yes of course it is. The difference is that the CL is worth playing in, whereas the EL is not. Playing in the CL definitely hit our points tally last year (we had better players but got less points than the year before), but playing in the CL is the whole point of qualifying for it. There is, very sadly, little point now in playing in the EL
great work spooky and davedajew
There's no such thing as Weds-Sat with the CL.
If you play on Weds in the CL, you play on the following Sunday in the PL.
If you play on Tues in the CL, you play on the following Saturday in the PL.
In both cases you get a solid 3 days break. In fact, with this weekend as an example, Chelsea played Tuesday and don't play until Sunday.
With the Europa you play Thursday & Sunday, meaning only a 2 day break.
What's truly ridiculous is that we play tonight, then Liverpool on Sunday, followed by Stoke on Tuesday. Is there a reason why we couldn't switch Stoke to Wednesday?
Fact is that the FA treat the CL teams as highest priority when it comes to fixtures, while everyone else has to shut up and put up.
Oh and the squad for tonight is:
Gomes, Cudicini, Archer, Bassong, Corluka, Walker, Waller-Lassen, Livermore, Townsend, Fredericks, Carroll, Nicholson, Parrett, Pavlyuchenko, Dos Santos, Falque, Kane, Lancaster, Pritchard.
"Axing of a manager does not solve the club's problem at all, since it is not the manager that's playing the game, but the players. If victorious, the manager is praised & if the club fails,most blame is directed to the manager."
Except for when we do well under Redknapp he claims it as his own masterstroke, and when things don't go well it's somebody else's fault (Modric's head ain't in it.. We have injuries.. The players are all unsettled.. It's too cold)
Everyone criticised Luka for thinking he's too big for the club but now the hypocrisy has all come around as we think we're too big for some competitions.. God forbid should we become like the scum and start calling things the 'worthless cup' then getting boners when we bumble our way to the final.
However, I don't see why we can't be competitive in the Premiership and the Europa League. Our squad has enough depth to field a creditable squad on a Thursday and a near full-strength one at the weekend. Some of our youths I don't think are ready yet (Fredericks & the others being touted for tonight), but players like dos Santos, Bassong, and other fringe men have more than enough quality!
COYS!
I am dreading tonight - we are fielding a team of major unknowns - I dread to imagine what if we get majorly beat - impact on the general morale on the club and the players themselves (I can recall many 'promising' players never get a look in after experiencing a defeat career ends b4 it starts).... another crisis ? BUT being the total optimist - we WILL win tonight PLEASE !!!!!
COYMS!!!!
If we lose tonight the effect it will have on morale is NIL. It is a league we are playing in not a one off cup tie.
I just wanna be entertained, good or bad play, as long as they go for it I'm happy. But then I've got into football late (considering my age) and I have felt my allegiance grow and feelings throughout matches change; I get the hump if I can see a problem that can be easily fixed (like I really know anything!). Point is everyone has different hopes/aspirations, influenced by many different things over time, and these change, so just have fun!
I really applaud the club giving the youngsters a stage to play on this evening. It is what the Spurs as a whole have not really done before. Even if we lose I am sure one or two of them will stand out and improve from the experience. Which is all we can ask.
Have to say that the lads put in a solid shift tonight. With the exception of the front pairing, everyone did a good job. Good experience for the youngsters in a hostile environment.
However - once again Pav was shite, and Gio did little to suggest that Harry will play him in the PL.
Have to say, that was surprising. I guess kids + benchers aren't too shabby as a unit after all.
Well done to the lads who played tonight. We looked composed and like the home team for most of it. Well done to Harry too for having the bottle to pick a team to do the job rather than go for the safe options.
Couple of observations. Walker don't look like a RB to me. We should start Charlie against Pool and if we play Walker it should be in RM. Also I read some Spurs fan saying Pav and Gio should be starting for the first team. I must be missing something because tonight neither looked even close.
Anyways a special well done to the two CMs Livermore and Carroll. You don't get much time off in the middle but they coped well. Hope we have both on the bench on Sunday so they can have a run out late on once the game is won.
Clean sheet;
Away point;
Youngsters & fringe get a game;
No more players got hurt;
Starters are rested for Sunday:
Sounds like job done to me.
At what point in time did it become too much for a squad of players to be competitive in all competion? There has always been the same number of competitions, right? There are now actually less league games than there used to be, right?so why in an era in which the players are supposed to be finely tuned athletes rather than the beer swilling pie eating forebears do managers throw so much blame at a lack of depth in the squad ? And why are there now so many injuries? Menicus, metatarsal,achilles are all a source of worry for arry and he's ilk but surely these players are just taking the piss?please let me know if I've got this all wrong
Good piece once again sums up life as a Spurs fan the gripes the groans the highs and the lows.Personally i think winning the Europa league and a top four finish is realistic,we have the best squad that i can ever remember but do we have the right gaffer??You cant knock Arry for what he has done but at the same time he does have his own personal agenda and further digs himself a hole everytime he opens his trap,makes you really wonder what a guy like Ancelotti would acheive with the squad of players we now have,the next level is there ready and waiting for a new messiah.COYS
Who says the Europa has nothing to offer? Good gravy it was like a San Francisco bath house over there. Shirtless hirsute men by the thousands. Toilet paper salutes. And cannon fire! I can't wait to see what it's like at Rubin Kazan.
COYS
Well played the boys in Lilly White.
Tom Carroll is going to be a proper proper player. Livermore looks more assured in every game, Townsend is going to massive if he lives up to his potential.
Fantastic result. Thank god 80% of people who post their nonsense on the internet have literally no say in anything regarding the spurs team./
when is the new podcast out spooks? please tell me today, i can't be fucking bothered to watch the soaps with my bird tonight....
and on the game last night gents, can you all now accept that gio is a pile of wank, there were kids out there without his so called prestige that he did half as well as.
pav is a baby giraffe, i honestly think i could do better, he is fucking useless, and seeing him now is starting to upset me.
Question is easy to answer for me : Silverware it is ,screw the downplaying of the EL , I mean have we become too big for it after ONE season in the CL ? What a load of bollix
For me it is an insult to the fans , to the European league (which holds btw many strong teams) to take it as a nuisance. It used to be important to play in Europe and go for glory , now its all about CL and the money , replenishing the war chest.
Screw that , football is about passion and winning and freeflowing attacking play.
@nicktheyid regarding injuries - I would say it's a combination of things. It's known that the boots players wear are very lightweight and offer little protection. Likewise, pitches are no longer pure grass and there are all kinds of combinations being used, each giving different turf depths. As a result, if players wear the wrong type of stud it can result in twists, sprains, tears etc.
'At what point in time did it become too much for a squad of players to be competitive in all competion? There has always been the same number of competitions, right? There are now actually less league games than there used to be, right?so why in an era in which the players are supposed to be finely tuned athletes rather than the beer swilling pie eating forebears do managers throw so much blame at a lack of depth in the squad ? And why are there now so many injuries?'
How about just looking at one simplistic element?
First off, if you are looking for cause and effect try the introduction and increase in numbers of substitutes.
The ability to chose from five / seven player to alter the tactics of a game has meant that players had to be more athletic in order to cope with the pace of new players and fresh legs.
This in turn led to a greater emphasis on fitness and training at match pace between games in order to succeed. Net result being that more injuries occur during training. They have as much to do with things at injuries sustained (and even that is subjective given the nature of 'niggles') during a game as 'new injuries'.
So looking back, 1960's is where it all started going wrong, oh and of course the premier league move to change number of substitutes to five in 1996 and then seven in 2008.
The promise of faster / better games with pace and athleticism which would make the 'viewing expeience' and 'consumer discussions' last longer and have more impact, in turn for which you could charge more for viewing rights? Of course sky/ FA/ UEFA/ FIFA were always going to buy into that phillosophy. Anything which allows the game to be discussed for longer increases it's perceived 'value' (why else drag your heels on the introduction of technology after all).
That's just one theory, then came all the biomechanical and physiological analysis of how far you could push / train teams, and then the introduction of 'squad rules' , followed by the interpretation of course, and then the lawyers and the accountants.
It was of course far simpler when it was just twelve blokes, one of which was having a crafty fag by the dug out, but is what we have now better? well that, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.