Y word
Saturday, April 16, 2011 at 5:07PM A couple of years ago I was in a restaurant local to where I live for a 30th birthday. Only detail relevant to this article is the incident where two blokes (birthday boy and a mutual friend) pick up pieces of pork off their plates and proceed to drop them over mine.
“There you go”
I was deeply deeply embarrassed for the pair of them. Racism and ignorance go hand in hand. Casual some might say in this case. Hardly acceptable no matter how you wish to perceive it.
If I added a caveat that they actually said "there you go yid" what would you think?
Removing the connection to football for a moment, you’d hardly expect to ever see behaviour like that at work or out and about or during an evening meal. So forgetting football, if I was Jewish and someone did that it would be absolutely scandalous. The fact I’m not Jewish still doesn’t make it acceptable but in the heads of the two comedians it was because of the affiliation and identity Tottenham has with its fanbase.
Football is anchored to my identity even when I'm sat eating a meal during an evening out. 'He’s a Spurs fan so we can make anti-Semitic jokes at his expense'. Nice one. I've never referred to myself as a 'yid' in their company or anyone elses other than when I go to White Hart Lane and I'm surrounded by thousands who might well shout it out once or twice.
And that’s the crux. It’s not because we hold our hands up high and chant ‘Yid Army’ or ‘Yiddos’. We’re not encouraging rival fans to have a go back with venomous hatred, hissing away, singing songs about gas chambers just because of one word that is buried deep in complexities about whether its derogatory nature is one that is only so if used by someone who is using it to be offensive and nothing less.
There’s a fundamental difference between you or me (if you support Spurs) saying the Y word and someone else who is using it, with expletives either side, when mouthing it off and Nazi saluting. But is there an argument to suggest that using the word as a means to defuse and disarm the racists allows for playful adoption of it that usually always crosses the line?
There might be ample irony in using a derogatory word to fight back the abuse, but that's the whole point of why it was adopted in the first place. It's not a deterrent. But it's a hefty shield.
Racism isn't born in football grounds. Once upon a time perhaps it was a breeding place for it. Point is, you know what's right or wrong. You make your own decision. The ones that make the wrong decisions are the ones that tend to end up being kicked out of football grounds. The racist thoughts are in their minds before they get to the game. Racism still exists but let's not pretend football is still stuck in the 70s and 80s.
From my own experience, the people who are anti-Semitic make the assumption that all Spurs fans are Jewish even though they know that’s hardly the case. It simply adds fuel to their fire and they dislike the fact we call ourselves yids even more because they wish for the word to be their own to be used against us. It's their weapon and they hate to see us all giddy with fingers dancing in the air as we sing.
None of this really has to be explained but thanks to David Baddiel who has hijacked the word with good intentions you would hope (kick out racism) but appears to have done so because...well, every campaign needs a hook. And the Y Word works wonders as the chorus for a song that is full of far more disturbing lyrics. It's actually a little ridiculous when you think about it. It's almost like the people involved in this don't quite have the balls to step up and deal with the actual racism itself, rather preferring to dance around people who are not racist but are apparently naively encouraging racist people to be racist.
Baddiel actually loses credibility with this. He's aiming his punch at the wrong people.
I appreciate he feels uncomfortable hearing his own fans use the word. But perhaps its the sudden realisation that his own fans tend to use it in a very different way than we do. Or the realisation that this aint half good publicity. I hate to think that. Hate to say it. But it's all very wishy-washy.
It's also now the second time in the past couple of weeks that Kick It Out has mis-kicked in the style of Diana Ross wearing a blindfold.
I said I’m not Jewish so I’m in no position to categorically tell you if the word is derogatory beyond any doubt. Outside of the match-day environment? Of course it is. Because when would you have the necessity to ever use it ? Which brings us back to the bubble of football where crowds, united in voice, can sometimes get away with chants and songs that you wouldn’t be able to if you were skipping down the aisle in Tescos or shopping in the high street. This is not to say that being borderline or beyond is acceptable at football matches. But not everything is black and white.
I’ve heard various conflicting explanations and I’m not basing the following as the spine of my argument. I don’t actually have an argument to put forward, rather just observations and opinions. So regarding history...Oswald Mosley marched through the streets during the mid-thirties ('36 to be precise) blaming the Jews for everything and so legend has it, pointed to the East from Highbury (during a speech) and stating ‘down with the yids’.
Whether that’s actually true or not, probably doesn’t matter too much in the grand scheme of things because what we do know for certain is that he marched against the Jewish community (as well as anyone else he disliked) through the East end. But not everyone followed or agreed with his facist views and many sided with the Jewish community. Which is what happened in N17 in the years that followed.
It all probably began during that era. And if the Y word was not derogatory before it sure was after Mosley marched. As for the fight back, you’ll hear some state we started to use 'Yid' in the 60s whilst others claim the 70s. During those decades and more so the 80s (before cctv killed old skool hooliganism) we still had to put up with the hissing and rest of it. With only pockets of incidents left in the game now there might be another argument that perhaps we no longer need to be throwing the Y word back in their faces. Then again, we’ve stood tall since the mid-30s. So why all the big hullabaloo about it when there are more pressing matters in football, say for example FIFA giving a World Cup to Russia, a country where they still think its okay to throw bananas at black players?
You’ll find quotes dating back to 2002 where Baddiel has spoken about all this before (from Time Out London ‘Anti-Semitism in football' by Pete Watts):
‘I told myself that it didn’t matter, that for most of these fans, “Yiddo” simply meant a Tottenham player or fan and that the negativity was about that and not about race.’ However, when Chelsea fans aimed the chant at non-Tottenham Israeli players, Baddiel ‘realised I was in denial: “Yiddo” may mean Tottenham fan but it also means Jew.’ Baddiel may be interested to know that my own eureka moment involved him. When he was spotted during a game in the mid-1990s and half the West Stand broke into a chorus of ‘Yiddo, yiddo!’, Baddiel smiled it off – but the penny finally dropped that this was racist abuse, pure and simple.
Taken him a while to get this video filmed then. I guess he's been too busy writing novels and enjoying Chelsea's success. I also find the footage for the campaign tinged with delicious irony, what with having Ledley King in there and what...no England captain John Terry? I'll move on. Wouldn't want to get a threatning letter from the FA.
I guess all those other blatantly racist chants he (Baddiel) would have heard in and around Chelsea didn’t quite filter through to his seat, lost in the acoustics of the ground I would imagine. Equally so, he appears to have been unfazed by it all in the past having dabbled in a little casual anti-Semitism during his stint on Fantasy Football when he made a link to some footage of traditional Jews involved in a ceremony whilst stating something to do with Tottenham fans. Hey, but he’s Jewish, so he’s allowed to be borderline when a cheap laugh is at stake. Click here for another cheap laugh.
Tottenham cite that it’s a small group of Jewish and non-Jewish fans that use the Y word and are inviting debate, but firmly sitting on the fence in terms of whether it’s right or wrong for this small group to be using it. Which is an understandable position rather than doing something drastic and knee-jerk and banning the word from the Lane altogether. Strange how its not something you could quite see happening. No pressure from club or association or anyone else to perhaps go down that path. Ambiguity strikes again.
The club understand the history that sits behind all the rhetoric and are therefore sensitive to all concerned. Fact is, if you read between the lines, we don't appear to have a problem with it. And making it disappear, to actually stop Spurs fans referring themselves as yids is nigh impossible. More chance of Chelsea attracting capacity crowds if they played in a lower division.
We have been here before. And I'm sure last time the club didn't feel there was an issue at hand with its own fans using it in the manner we've been doing so for generations (I think there was a survey at the time, anyone?). Which is why it's tolerated outside of the usual policing.
Like I said, I’m just sharing my own opinions. Jewish people that frequent the Lane that I’m friends with mostly if not all sing the Yid chants. And do so without cringing or seeming uncomfortable. Surely that’s a win in the fight against racism? A Jewish person calling himself a yid with a non-Jewish person standing next to him also calling himself a yid.
So we have Jewish fans that dislike the word, we have fans that are Jewish who have adopted it and we have non-Jewish fans that have used it with pride. In fact I’d wager that some don’t even think too deeply about its connotations because it’s very much synonymous with our hardcore support.
And if younger football fans are leaving the game and going to school on the Monday and using the word, what then? The complexities still exist, I'll admit to that.
So where do we go from here?
Is it okay for another rival fan and friend to refer to you as a ‘Yid’? I guess it is because that’s what you might well refer to yourself as. But it’s not okay for him to make casual jokes about Jews or overstep the mark, right? So if we eradicate the word from the stands completely, so that’s no more Y word, does that mean all those pockets of minority racist fans will suddenly decide there’s no incitement from us for them to respond to and thus, no more hissing or crude Jewish references thrown our way?
Bit too late now, isn’t it?
If cctv was invented in the 50s perhaps, but after several decades a video written by a comedian and his brother is unlikely to change a thing. The very fact everyone is debating this topic once more is a positive with what with highlighting the disgusting chants and abuse that still remain in the game. But I can't help but think something is lost in translation and that perhaps after so many years of using the word as a badge of honour, we are suddenly going to be deemed as the perpetrators adding fuel to the fire. But only whilst the hype remains as a talking point.
This will all be forgotten about again soon enough. Just like last time. We'll continue to use the Y word and racism will continue to rear its ugly head. And Baddiel will go back to growing his unsightly beard. The sun will rise, the sun will set.
Reader Comments (71)
You're right Spooky, this is as complicated as you & 'arry
Nothing complicated about 'arry.
Where I sit (east lower), I am surrounded by several good people who are Jewish and they sing, with proud, all the Yid chants/tunes or whatever you want to call 'em. Maybe war chants? ;)
My dad's side is Jewish and support ARSEnal but they fell tinged with envy (their words) that we have this rapport with the Jewish community, fighting side by side with our comrades and generally going into battle as one during match days.
This, I feel, will blow over but the next Baddiel will be back, with a stronger argument (better vid) and then, jsut maybe then will the pressure grow.
Anyway, up the Yids and COYS!
I stand by my view that it has opened the debate - and importantly has forced the admission that the hissing and nazi salutes exist, which have always been denied - and was even being denied by Spurs fans last week when the racism issue appeared.
Badly put together I agree, and I think it should be made explicitly clear that none of the footage in the video is of Spurs fans which has caused a lot of the confusion.
As a Jewish, mixed race Spurs supporter, I agree with the complications that go with this issue. The central issue (as highlighted by you Spooky) is that not dissimilar to the N-word, its ok for a jew to call him/herself a yid but if a non-Jew calls the Jew a yid, this is racism. Black people are allowed to tell Black jokes etc.
So when other supporters call Spurs supporters yids, is this racism? As we call ourselves yids (with pride) I think it would be hypocritical to have an issue with others calling us yids.
I too find conflicting arguments about the origins of this nickname. Although all the urban legends seem to point to Spurs being called yids (in a derogatory way) because of the Jewish association at the time - whenever it actualy started . The fans at the time adopted the opposition's chants and refered to themselves as yids ever since. You can speculate as to intentions all day long. I like to think the supporters were saying "yeah we do have a Jewish contingent, and we're pround of it. What?!"
The problem with the Y-word campaign: 1) comes from a Chelsea supporter (his fellow fans ARE using it in a negative way) but because he's a Chelsea fan, he doesn't know the other side - Spurs fans using the term out of pride. 2) We are in danger of turning the Y-word into the N-word. The N-word has evolved into a monster over time. Especially in the US, I challenge you to find a white person to say the N-word outloud without looking over their shoulder or look nervous. If the Y word gets turned into the equivalent in this country, quite simply, we've put too much power into 1 FUCKING WORD!
Don't get me wrong, the chants about Jews being sent to the gas chambers is a step too far, and you'll always find football fans that do take things too far. Baddiel's intentions are in the right place. But whatever anyone says, unless something a little more inteligent (ie offering more insight) comes to light, I am a Jew, I am a spurs supporter, and I am a proud YID - and always fucking well will be.
I think the main reason for this move by Mr Baddiel is publicity. He hasnt been on telly recently and needs a bit of a leg up so what better than a supposedly thought -provoking video with a racist theme?
I am a long standing Spurs fan and thought it was a stroke of genius when Tottenham fans started calling themselves yids as the mindless pillocks who used it as a hatred stirring theme were totally fucked, they had nothing to chant any more. As Spooky has shown with these video clips, Baddiel is nothing more than a total hypocrite, and we should pay him no attenion whatsoever.
I read half the article, it was a bit long! On the issue of whether the word actually is derogatory and your inability to comment as you are not Jewish... The meaning of any word depends on the intentions of the user and the associations of the listener. It is not 'inside' the word, as such, and remember that there were words before there were dictionaries. We have no negative intentions when we say YIDS, and we don't associate it immediately with Judaism, we think SPURS FAN. It's our word, part of our identity, as well as any association it has for any other group... and we have a right to retain our identity as the Yids. As for using it leading others to be racist, if they say 'f...ing Spurs' do we have to stop calling ourselves Spurs? We are not racist, and we are not responsible for others racism.
You should know by now Stratty, I don't do short.
Thanks for posting that link to the clip from "Fantasy Football". I remember Badiel making the occasional snide remark against Spurs fans and their supposed Jewishness which used to offend me not only as a Jew and a Spurs fan, but also as a lover of good comedy. (I have shamelessly nicked that last bit from Seinfeld.)
So it was ok for Baddiel to make these comments which only served to reinforce racial stereotypes then because he is Jewish? IMHO he should be held responsible in part for the anti-Semitic jibes aimed at Spurs fans after all a whole generation grew up with the idea that if it appears on TV it's kosher.
It all stems form the fact that Baddiel is a fairly talentless comedian who tries to make capital from the fact that he happens to be Jewish hoping that people will associate him with genuinely funny Jewish entertainers such as Jackie Mason, Woody Allen, Danny Kaye, Jerry Lewis, Jerry Seinfeld etc. The funniest Jewish comedian in Britain at the moment, Matt Lucas (ok, he's a gooner, but I knew him when he was a kid in Stanmore) doesn't need to resort to accentuating his Jewishness to succeed in his field. I have this feeling that this video is an attention-grabbing stunt and actually does a diservice to the whole campaign against anti-Semitism in Britain at the moment. (As I don't live in Blighty anymore I may be wrong so I'd be interested in hearing other people's views.)
I'd be more worried about the fact that people still think it is ok to sing about someones dad washing elephants because they are from Africa.
What's with the shit production on the film too?
I find this whole thing ridiculous. I'm a Yid but am not a Jew. It's become a seperate thing altogether. When you hear "Yid Army" you think Tottenham fans not Jews. Any word is simply sound vibrations, and it all boils down to how that word is used. If used to be hateful then address the hateful prick using it. If used in any other way then there's no problem. If Baddiel or anyone wants to live in a world where they don't want to have to hear certain words theni they are imbeciles who can fuck off. I mean who does he think he is? I would have thought he had some intelligence about such things but obviously not. Don't allow your speech to be controlled by anybody.
I have to say that this is just about the best blog I have read so far about this issue, but I would add my own point of view.
First of all, I never been comfortable with the yid chant. Having said that, I am amazed that so far, the only prominent Jew to have commented on it negatively, is Baddiel! Our last three chairman have all been Jews, and it was around the time Scholar got involved that this started to occur, In spite of my discomfort, I take the view that we are not monsters, and if any of these chairmen had said they found it offensive, we would have respected this. The current silence by Levy is deafening. Why?
One of the things that has annoyed me about this debate is that there has been a certain arrogance from our fans to the extent, that as we mean no harm, we should not have to put up with this current scrutiny. I have suggested elsewhere, that if our roots were in Brixton, would it be ok to tell black people that in calling ourselves niggers, we are really defending them?
Whether I am happy about the word or not is not really the issue, but with an estimated Jewish population of 300,000 in the UK, if the sum total of complaints amounts to Mr Baddiel and a few of his friends, than I have to say that "Kick It Out" has scored an own goal. And that is really the issue for me: if there were a few thousand Jews taking issue, I would support a ban, because it is not for me to say that it is not offensive if I am not Jewish. But if it's a few hundred, I know that any decision by anybody is always going to upset somebody, and if over 90% of Jewry are not offended, then to me, that is not a problem.
One thing that I do think should be stopped is the occasional display of Israeli flags. Jews and Israelis are not necessary the same thing, and displaying the Israeli flag is likely to cause offence to Moslem fans.
I agree ben. It all depends how the person using the word intends it to be taken. If it's hateful then it's his problem and shouldn't stop the word being used altogether. To me a yid is a spurs player/supporter. I think the historical connotations of the word is now irrelevant. What it meant in the 1930s has nothing to do with how it's used now. I do not agree that just cos be use yid to describe ourselves then it's ok for others to use it. Black people often call themselves niggers or brothers but I don't feel that a non black can use these words with the same affection as they are not black and typically comes across racist even with no intent to do. When race is involved or deemed to be involved then I feel only that group should be freely aloud to describe themselves with potentially derogatory words.
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the only reason ledders is on there is as an attempt at redemption after his alleged racist outburst last year.
and banning a word? doesn't that sound like a nazi thing to do?
Can we get rid of old people at games - anyone over 60. Their faces are horrible to look at, very offensive!
Is Judaism a race or a religion? I say Yid a lot, with pride and affection and I'm half Irish and half English cockney. I a did once get a bad reaction when I sent a text to a chap I'd recently met who I'd discovered was a Spurs supporter. It was after the Milan win I believe and I messaged all the Yids I know-sorry- with the legend 'YIDS!' I got a very shitty text back saying how he didn't think it was very clever using the word etc. I replied '?' as I was genuinely stunned, I'd never been told off for saying it before. Anyway he was half English half Indian! Like the man before said, if there's massive offence being taken in the jewish community over it then maybe we should stop but I really dont think there is. It all sounds a bit Guardianista to me.
Why stop at offence connected to race? Arsenal fans spend every North London Derby making every effort to be offensive to us throughout the whole experience. Arrest them all, I say, from the scowlers to the growlers!
Essex spur, you're going to have to explain that? 'Where race is concerned, we should not use potentially derogatory words?' Why? Why is race a more valuable socially defining attribute than any other? Why should we be more sensitive to race groups than footballing communities, or left-handed people, or gardeners? Why is race due extra sensitivity?
And seriously, 'potentially derogatory'... that has to be in the knock-me-down-with-a-feather category of mental strain. If someone said something that was 'potentially derogatory' to me, as an ethnic minority - I think I could cope. Because I don't take them seriously, I don't have low self-esteem. It just makes me think worse of them, that they are ignorant, and probably have rarely stepped off the island (the one you call Britain).
We are far too sensitive about this crap. Call me a nigger, frankly, I will call you an uneducated imbecile. And I'm done. That's as much as you have affected me - for a second, and I'm done. It's only when you give people a sky-high wall of protection that they can't cope when it is broken.
Essex Pur: I think the reason why Essex Spur believes that race should get a higher standard of protection is that there isn't that great a history of persecuting gardeners or left handed people, but history is full of racial violence.
I'm 100% Yid and 110% Yiddo. The word does not offend me in the slightest. It's only the adjectives that are used before it which could cause offence. Long live the Yid Army and all of it's multi-cultural members. Shalom.
I am a Spurs fan or 30 years. Many of my friends and heros (musicians especially) are Jewish.
I am not jewish, but for Baddiel to suggest i am being ignorant and anti-Semitic when i chant yiddo makes me so angry. I hope this whole can of worms bites him in the arse, because he should be targeting his own comrades for committing racism not the people that are celebrating their fellowship.
hi spuds!
Happy anniversary! 50 years.....and never again!
cheers for another 50 years!
THE YID ... "I am a Jew, I am a spurs supporter, and I am a proud YID - and always fucking well will be."
Nice one ... Just about sums things up ....I aint changing my ID for no one FUCK EM !!!!
COYS
Hey Arsenal fan!
Happy anniversary! 125 years of being twats.
Cheers for always being there.
David Badiel ?????.....we are the yids .........end of........simply its our heritage and as it is our identity.....if some take it out of context it does not make it wrong........any use of language is offensive if expressed to offend........ ...the anti semetism he feels........the example of bigots of some chelsea fans..who incidentally are owned by a russian jew..does not make the whole arguement and to patronise and politically correct working class culture from his middle class status is his attempt to keep in the public eye his own career.......being a jewish comedian who has failed to make me laugh it seems he has lost the plot..................the yid army in song ..........is awesome long may it continue..o .meddling prize one
think again....??.....there something wrong here in this clip...........i know what it is................being told to think from a footballer....this lot have the collective iq of a potatoe........yid word is a good word for us spurs fans and is the positive in an anti semetic world...........dumbasses
So if there's a history of racial violence, I'm expected to collapse mentally if someone is racist? I don't think so.
As I have watched this debate develop, I think we are in danger of missing the obvious.
Some of the comments that have been made have not been helpful for a start. Some of these are ill-informed, and some are an invitation to confrontation. I am probably going to open a whole new can of worms, but for me, the most dangerous comment I have seen so far is that that it is going to be difficult to arrest 30,000 people. They don't need to arrest 30,000. If they regularly arrest a few hundred every match, it is not too long before the FA start threatening ground closures.
Over the years I have discovered that though the Police talk about policing by consent, they are also quick to remind us that they "rule the streets". It may well be impractical to arrest 30,000 of us, but with the current powers that the Police and courts have to issue banning orders, how many of us will they need to arrest before we start thinking in terms of "Sod this for a game of soldiers".
If the Police determine they are going to put a stop to this, then they will. One thing that the police are pretty good at is arresting people and then using restraint techniques which cause discomfort, leading to the detained person struggling. This then appears as you are resisting arrest, and before you know it, we are back in the days of the hooligan fan base. Then the FA intervene, and we are threatened with ground closure, assuming we have not been banned from attending matches because we have already been arrested. If that was the case, how many of us would carry on chanting at every match?
For those of you who doubt if the Police will behave in this way, you only have to look at their behaviour at climate camps. There is recent anti-terror legislation that makes it illegal to photograph the Police for "purposes of terrorism". There have been a number of arrests of "observer photographers" at climate camps under anti-terrorism laws, who have been kept in custody untill the camp has disbanded several days later, by which time the Police have "discovered" that the photographers were not "working for Al Qaeda" and they were released without charge.
I think one other area where we are missing the obvious, is our response to "Kick It Out" (KIO). We have all made our arguments, some of which are good, and some of which are downright crass, but the real issue is that KIO is funded by a QUANGO, the Commission for Racial Equality (CRE), and KIO will be mindful when they are looking for future funding, that they have got this wrong, but are unlikely to want to admit to that.
We should be telling the CRE that we are a team with a significant Jewish support in a country with a Jewish population of 300,000 and our last three chairmen have all been Jews. The feedback we appear to be getting from Jews is that they are either disinterested, or think our use of the word "Yid" is positive, and so far can find only one prominent Jew who is complaining about it. It should be added that he is also a supporter of a team that uses the word and chants that are particularly nasty and vicious. Therefore the real action that is needed, is to clean out the foul mouthed Chelsea fans.
I have said several times elsewhere, that I personally have never felt comfortable with the word and would be quite happy if we stopped using it, but if, as it appears, the vast majority of Jews who have an opinion, think it is positive, then we should be asking the CRE, "Why are you trying to destroy this positive support"?
Just as KIO are funded by the CRE, the CRE are in turn funded by the government of the day at a time when everybody is looking to make cuts. The last thing that the CRE will want is complaints from thousands of Jews who consider that this interference is both unnecessary and detrimental to Jewry, when the CRE next go cap in hand to seek funding. At the same time, the last thing we need are challenges by our supporters to law and order.
I'm glad you're here to tell us these things, Dublin, while the rest of us are struggling here just trying to learn to read - jumped up little twat.
I'm glad you're here to tell us these things, Dublin, while the rest of us are struggling here just trying to learn to read - jumped up little twat.
I forgive Spooky’s round the houses methodology, as this is the best Spurs blog on the net.
I can’t believe Baddiel thinks for one moment that we will stop referring to ourselves (or being referred to ) as Yids,Yiddo’s or the Yid Army. Its our badge of honour, regardless of historical origins. You wouldn’t expect Ar3en2l or Chelsea fans to give up calling themselves Gooners or Chav’s.. its their identity.
What i would hope comes out of this campaign, is the proactive removal and life banning of “fans” who are caught on surveillance doing the hissing & hitlerised version of “ossie’s dream”. That can be achieved.
Thanks Spooky -- I have been treading widely around this topic in the last few days (as have a lot of us) and yours is as usual one of the best. Some great posts in response as well. Good stuff all.
It has come to my attention though, that there is another club out there who refer to themselves by the P word (I will use it just once: The Ch£l$£a Pensioners .... ugh!). This is blatantly ageist, and should be stamped out immediately as it offends those of us whose employers have scrapped their pension schemes {sob!}
damn meant reading, not treading!
this defintion on wikapedia.....Main article: Tottenham Hotspur F.C.#Support
..................Both Jewish and non-Jewish fans of Tottenham Hotspur F.C. adopted "Yid" (or "Yiddo") as a nickname and "Yiddo, Yiddo!" as a battle cry and often identify themselves as "Yid Army". While such usage remains controversial, for the overwhelming majority of Tottenham supporters, it is used with pride.[4] Some Jewish Tottenham supporters use it with a political consciousness of the club as a bastion against racism and antisemitism. Others use it simply because many of the fans and owners of the club are Jews. However, the name was first given to the supporters as an insult, due to the large Jewish following at the club which is based close to the Jewish communities of North London....(.end.)....../..........this indicates where the film clip is wrong and bias in its analysis...of the positive
Essex Pur: You cannot be that disingenuous. Joseph Goebbels in describing how he managed to galvanise the average German into anti-semitism, said "First you must vilify these people". So when it becomes acceptable to describe someone as a "Dirty filthy stinking money grabbing Jew" and the state does nothing, that is the start of a slippery slope.
You might well be able to cope with such ignorance, but there is a second problem, in that hardcore racists will frequently expect a response from you, and if you fail to respond, it is because you are a coward in their eyes. The reality is that these are frequently bullies, and if you fail to stand up to them, and they can't get a response, then violence will often follow.
First you have the insults, and then you have the violence. If you make the insults illegal, then it is just that bit harder to escalate to the violence. Nobody is particularly trying to protect your mental health, they are trying to reduce the chances of you being attacked because of some moronic fascist idea
Having just seen your latest response to me, I have to conclude that you are not part of the solution, but part of the problem. I am sure you will want to make some equally eloquent response to me, but I won't be responding. I suspect that you are one of these people who believes that the person who has the last word is the winner, and I would not want to cheat you of your victory.
I should have realised from your first post what sort of person you are. My father once told me that one of the greatest fools is the person who thinks he can educate a fool. I admit you fooled me.
In closing, I would add that for a man who seems to think that insults are of no real effect, you are pretty quick to resort to them without provocation. But then again, trolling is not about consistency, it's about winding people up
Rumour has it Ledley suffered an injury during the filming of this video. YID ARMY!
A fellow Spur once told me it was the word he remembers from his youth when being beaten up. My personal choice was to stop using it from the day he told me that, but I don't demand anyone else does. The term 'my choice' applies to us all
As I am from the States, this is one aspect of Spurs culture I've had a hard time getting my head wrapped around. I am not Jewish but part of my family is. I also grew up in the deep South where I can tell you that racism and anti-semitism is alive and thriving and not just limited to the uneducated but fairly pervasive throughout. I had never heard the word "yid" used for anything but an insult until I started following Spurs. I read through the wikipedia explanation awhile back and it sort of made sense to me but I doubt I personally would feel comfortable making the same argument to my Jewish friends. It doesn't really matter though. There are tens of thousands of Spurs fans that have far more skin in the game then I do and what came before me, came before me and let those that populate WHL in person lead the debate.
I will say it's tricky stuff when you start declaring words "illegal." That is something you have to be very careful about.
Nice try Baddiel, you attention-mongering middlebrow hack.
How exactly did Baddiel come to support Chelsea in the first place all things considered? Chelsea have had vile support over the years with connections to National Front organisations. At no time did he bother to turn his back on the club because of their insistent racial attacks against us? Twenty years too late there David.
the control of language in its use odd if deemed illegal.........considering the use of positive atrributes and unity with the jewish section of the community being absolutely fine .......the idea that the state and law dictates what you think or say is treading on dangerous ground........to hold the higher moral and intellectual argument as biddiel seeks with his own negative chelsea experience is trying to put into order and control social freedoms of expression........we know what we mean when we sing yid army........unity with the whole club jew-non jew etc ........it is not racist ....it is a poistive reflection of what USED TO BE used as an insult to our fans ........time has moved on and so biddiel .......has offended more spurs fans with his public middle class social engineering diatribe........we already know what we think !
This place is full of blatant headhunterism.
:)
I am sort of a Spurs fan of 20+ years. I live in Israel now. I have experienced lots of anti-Semitic bullying when I was young, and this word was used. A large part of my family (and >90% of my community of 300,000 Lithuanian Jews) have perished in the gas chambers or were exterminated in other ways in the 1940-ies.
I think that a word is a word, nothing more. There is a history to it, oh yes. In particular, there is a history of nuanced meanings of it being used to describe Spurs supporters. It may be interesting, but it is irrelevant. We should not use any microscopes looking at the nuance. The issue is very simple. If it is used together with "hissing", it is offensive. If it is used together with "dirty money-grabbing etc etc", it is wrong. If it is used in a hate speech, it is wrong. Because the hate speech is wrong, you see, not because the word itself is. But if the word is used just to identify a Spurs fan, with pride or envy or loathing for a football rival, or just as a matter of fact, there is nothing wrong with it.
Please do not try to split hears on what exactly the history of its use is and who said it in the 1930-ies, and what associations it brings up in this Jew or that non-Jew and so on. Ask yourselves a very simple question - is it hate speech or is it something else? Hate speech should not be tolerated (I believe it should not be banned though). Everything else is fine.
@Gershon: Good post. I have always felt uncomfortable with the word. I think the reason for this was that I was brought up in a time and in a family that thought it was acceptable to be racist, and like any convert, I try to make up for past sins.
What impressed me most about your post was your penultimate sentence. Regardless of the filth that comes out of their mouths, once you start to ban these people, you turn them into heroes, as well as set precedents for other things to be banned. The problem is that the people who are likely to be responsible for announcing the bans, are also in a position to abuse that power.
@SpurredoninDublin
Thanks :-) There are many words that make us uncomfortable. I think we should try to wrestle them back from the bullies. Words exist to help us express what we mean. Not to be hostages to whatever somebody else have meant once.
Yes, this "overcompensating", "making up for past sins" sounds familiar. I have grown up with the Soviet propaganda, so fighting anything remotely "Soviet" always seemed important. But people should not overcompensate, if one is "anti-something", it means that this "something" still has a sort of hold over one. If you think being racist is wrong, just don't be racist, it is quite enough. Worrying too much about inadvertently offending someone is overdoing it. Just do not offend people intentionally. Er, IMHO.
Well done Gareth Bale you've done us proud.
And well done Arsenal you've given us a great laugh.