Hands up if you want to stand up at football matches
Wednesday, March 23, 2011 at 2:26PM It's back in the news again, standing at football matches. The Prem league are set to oppose a return to designated terracing. Obviously we can't be trusted to stand without seats and the stewards and police can't be trusted to manage the same amount of people that would be present if they were instructed to sit down. They do realise that if something (God forbid) happened - we'd all still need to stand up to leave in an orderly fashion? I can't help but think that the reasons given for not entertaining the potential for standing areas at modern stadia is one born out of laziness. It's all safe and comfortable and easy as it is so why complicate things by risking any potential for trouble when that potential is practically no different to anything that might or might not happen at a football match.
Considering how tight the ticketing system is when purchasing and entering the ground and more so the amount of stewarding, police and CCTV that exists during the ninety minutes that gets played out - the system is already in place to guarantee the safety of fans who wish to stand rather than sit. Fact is, it happens at games anyway. Park Lane lower at Spurs a perfect example. Stewards forever trying to get people to sit down. Threats that the council will close parts of the ground if we don't. Happens elsewhere too. Let's be honest, the clubs go through the motions of asking people to sit and already some (arguably) turn a blind eye at some altogether. Whilst others display a zero-policy to it, removing fans if they persistently refuse to remain seated. It's all very unnecessary and over-policed.
Stop patronising us, we're not hooligans and this is not the 1980s and whether its standing room with seats or a fully fledged no-seat area - it's going to be safe by virtue of the amount of people that are allowed access to it. The very fact stadia are better designed and are far safer environments is not because there is no terracing - it's because of everything else (the aforementioned infrastructure concerning entry to the ground and the fact you can not get away with being stupid/racist/thuggish thanks to said CCTV and the vigilance of other fans).
I'm sure some of the reasoning against it relates to such matters as smoking or drinking or if there is an idiot in amongst the standing fans - it's far easier to imagine gaining access to said person if it was a seated area. In a crowd, you can 'escape'. Not far to be honest, you still have to attempt to leave the ground. And people who cause trouble do so now in seated grounds so that's hardly going to be influenced with a throwback to how we once upon a time enjoyed a game of football.
How about rather than dismissing it for no apparent reason - the Prem send a delegation to Germany and see how they manage to include standing areas at their grounds without any issues at all to safety. Or trial it. Or at the very least speak to fan associations and clubs and gauge opinion. We're the ones spending our money on the game. Ironically, making us consumers - which is where the problem exists.
Football has changed in so many ways. You're not immersed as much as you once was because you're not allowed to be. It's almost frowned upon in some grounds to swear or show intense emotion. It's even got to the point where some fans ask you to keep the noise down as they turn around to face you from the seat in the next row (it's happened to me a couple of times). We'd had to sacrifice a lot because of mistakes made by others and because of a changing society and football itself morphing into a far more accessible pastime (compared to the 80s) for families to attend. The whole footballing landscape in terms of the evolution of the fan and the experience explosion into the mainstream has changed massively in the past 10-20 years. Shame that the more working class elements (whether you are working class or not) are no longer truly respected.
So, to the Prem League - we're not asking for much. So stop pretending we are and try to meet us half way.
For more information and to sign the petition, visit the Football Supporters' Federation.
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Reader Comments (26)
I can't understand why they oppose it.
It will result in increased revenue, i.e. Increase the terrace area capacity by double and decrease the ticket price by around 33%.
In doing this, they will attract more fans, experience a better atmosphere, and dramatically increase gate revenue.
Totally believe that we should have standing but in a designated area and all season ticket holders, no other ticket available for the area.
Any fan I'd imagine that took his/her grievence to the Europeon Parliement would IMO win, either that or stadia across Europe would have to be changed.
I think the #1 reason why we have seats still is because of the saftey of the players, with seats its easier to stop a rush onto the pitch, whereas without seats its a freeforall. Easily changed with a moat system, like at alot of sub-continent critcket grounds now.
id be perfectly happy if i was simply allowed to stand at my seat without being hassled, ridiculous.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/22/terracing-government-reintroduce-standing
Looks the government actually want to play ball.
I have been advocating a return to stands for some years now and lot's of fans have said it would not happen - well you r wrong, this is the beginning and by my estimates if we revert back to stands then we don't need to move as turning under half of WHL back to stands will give us over 60k of fans per match ... hey problem cured no need to leave WHL Mr Levy and better than the 56k you would have got with the Northumberland project ... money in the bank to pay a new manager and new and better committed players (Defoe/Crouch out and Harry to England) .. all the millions saved Mr Levy will be pleased!!! Let it happen soon .... COYS 4 Life
Very good point about the Premier League executives actually making the trip to Germany to see for themselves before rejecting the proposal for safe standing. We know it's done over there without any harm, then why not over here?
In response to Comment 2:51 PM, if the only problem is safety and the fear of crushing or rushing onto pitch, it is so easy to put up small railings at intervals on the terrace. Behind each railing would be 3 rows of spectators. Problem solved.
Lol - great minds - was just going to email you to ask you to do a blog on this after reading the Granuiad story. Been supporting the FSF campaign for a long time and feels like it's finally starting to make progress.
Personally I don't have a romantic memory of terracing, so I'm not that bothered about bringing back terraces, but I do think you should be allowed to stand at your seat as Spursmass has said already.
As Spooky mentioned certain areas of Park Lane and Shelfside you stand for 90mins. Or play stand up sit down for 90mins -whichever way the stewards decide to approach the game.
Most of the time when you go away the only time you sit down is at half time, so most people are already showing what they prefer to do, I just can't see the government changing their minds without good reason, if it ain't broke don't fix it as the saying goes.
Two things:
1) when was the last time anyone saw a proper scrap inside a ground? Used to be several per weekend in the 1980s but nothing happens these days and even the tiny number of incidents are handbags. Surely the EPL has noticed the transformation of behaviour inside grounds in the past 20-30 years
2) If H&S is the be all and end all why can you stand up at gigs, not just stand up but jump about and dance in the mayhem and crush at the front, all surrounded by E'd up beered up people, in the dark, with deafening noise to hamper communication etc.
It's a valid point. This is not like the terraces were taken away in the 80s and then suggested they be brought back a few years later. It's 2011. We're all passionate and fanatical and vocal (well most of us) but we've also moved on from the stereotypical fan from 20 years back and football - on the day - is also a completely different kettle of fish, pockets of outside fighting aside between the 'firms'. We are far more responsible and there is a lot more at risk if we turn up and do something stupid (i.e. banned from games / criminal record).
People got away with it in the 80s because they could. Because they were bored and it was the mentality culturally to behave like (if you follow my train of thought). They simply can't do so nowadays. Especially inside a ground. And if does kick off, it's a rarity and it's all caught on camera.
I think many are missing the point as to why it will never come back in the Prem League.
The clubs, including ours, don't actually want the type of fan who stands - it is as simple as that.
Have you seen the cost of some of the corporate deals - the last thing the club wants is to encourage the "wrong type" of fan - nothing at all to do with Elf & Safety or policing, all about the margins.
Family orientated and tourist friendly, it's hardly a working class game any more as much as we'd like to think it owes us that much the game has moved on and changed. It's about the money for certain but then they'll never admit that and will use the more publicised reasons to ignore what many want. It's a shame but it's not a massive gut wrencher. I think we'd like it back but we're more than content with what we have.
so what happens if there is another tragedy like hillsborough, it would be an insult to liverpool fans if they went back to terraces i think after coming all this way. saying this i used to love standing in paxton road and would love to stand again. maybe they should just lighten up a bit about us standing by our seats. football is losing its atmosphere for sure. but its a hard one to call after that terrible day for liverpool.
football has priced the working class out of games, they should build bigger stadiums and offer fans cheaper tickets who dont have as good a view, ie 3 tiers up, at least they can get there.
I say have someone sing throughout the game (without a microphone) call it a concert and have a full on yid mosh pit in the Park Lane.
Don't forget your DM's!
Hillsborough? A policing disaster. It's hardly an insult to them now is it? What about the terracing in other countries where there is hardly any problems at all?
German info:
When asked about the ground's accident record, safety officer Volker Fuerderer said: "In the nearly six years of the VELTINS-Arena, there has not been a single incident or injury that was caused by having standing terraces."
When the FSF asked Borussia Dortmund for injury statistics for its 25,000-capacity standing section, Europe's largest, it was told the club do not keep statistics for injuries inside the ground as they were not an issue.
Also - worth noting (as mentioned here http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=53666&start=20 ) that the policing and management and then the apparent aftermath of carelessness has a lot more to answer for than the actual fans and the lack of seats.
Terracing will never come back, football has moved on, its a different business now. Why put a moat and some fencing, are we caging the fans in.. this answers your question. health and safety also dominates now i'm afraid.
You can imagine what would happen if terracing is re-introduced and we have another disaster on our hands, everybody will have to waiver their right to prosecute before entering the ground.
I also take my kids who are short and when everybody stands, they cant see a thing - not good really!
Great post Spooky and some excellent responses - good work all round.
As a Lower East season ticket holder, I find that everyone stands up all the way through the big games (Chelsea, Arsenal, Milan) and we don't get told to sit down at all which is great - much better. More noise too. Ask any pro singer which is the best position for singing, sitting or standing?
In theory, this situation is not too bad for kids either as they can stand on the seats. The only thing is, is the fat bloke next to me is ALWAYS the last one to sit down in those quieter, stand up, sit down games which is a pain in the hole as everyone else behind me has already sat down and I either have to wait for him to sit down or miss what's going on with Benny and his cornrows.
That said, if safe standing could be done, it'd be great and it wouldn't be the whole ground now would it? But this would be a good and relatively cheap way for us to bump up our capacity. Maybe the club can charge the corporates a few extra quid and bring them down into an "atmosphere" for 10 minutes or so as an optional extra?
However, the days of jumping around and going bananas are definitely over, but if this is something you miss, go to a gig. I don't mean at Wembley or the 02 or anything, I mean a proper gig. The Specials at Hammersmith last year was a cross between an 80s football match and a rave.
and Lemonade Money lost his shoe
If they return to terracing, it should be regulated- like in Disney- have a height bar- short arses in first, then raise the bar and let in the taller ones, 3mp's at the back! There should also be safety belts on all seating, for H&S reasons...
Surely it's far more dangerous to stand in seated areas than terracing with no seats in the way?
You'd think. Either way, it's as safe as the fans doing the standing. And in this day and age - that's pretty safe.
Small point - but don't take people currently standing up as meaning they all want to stand. If the row in front of you stands up, you have to stand up to see.
due to work i am very late in responding but here we go
I follow a lot of games in all of europe and i am always shocked by the lack of flexibility of the English stewards (i know they are forced to be like that) In Germany , France , Portugal , Holland , Belgium and Spain you can stand up most of the time , especially when you are behind the goals. Nobody cares , the stewards dont moan , if you want to sit down well then there are stands on the side more suitable for a comfortable way of watching the game. And you think there is (or was) no fighting and firms in the rest of Europe ? Ever been to Ajax - PSV , Marseille- PSG or Sporting Lissabon - Benfice for example ? People standing up , shouting , cursing , singing ... without having to deal with overactive stewards.
But every time i come to spurs , i get in to trouble , always get warned to stay seated and god forbid shout 2 loud, i am sorry to say this but if it wasnt for Spurs i wouldn't come to en English game. The crowd is great and you guys can make noise like no one but it's just not as intense as it could be (and i do not at all mean fighting should break out or anything like that).