Leave it out
Sunday, February 13, 2011 at 9:15PM Final thoughts on Stratford.
Not that all Hammers fans would agree, but there's certainly a percentage of them that wanted to win the bid just so that Spurs didn't and they could claim some ilk of moral victory over the ethics of moving into their patch (fair enough). However, now the realisation is sinking in that they've got an athletics stadium for a football home with the closest seat 45 meters away and the furtherest over 200 metres. Better hope Gold and Sullivan leave a jazz mag under each seat to keep the ICF busy with their fists.
Spurs were obviously used (you don't lose a vote 14-0) to make certain that the bid that won retained the legacy rather than see North Londoners demolish the stadium and rebuild to fit it's primary footballing objective.
Whether Levy genuinely knew this, p*ssing in the wind or otherwise (on the off chance of winning because our bid was more viable on paper) or simply spent time and effort to make sure Haringey understood his threat of leaving N17 - is all fairly redundant now. I think it's fantasy to think this was about local politics and the non-viable NDP. He wanted the OS. Hoping he wasn't fooled into believing he could actually get it. Because that would suggest weakness rather than Machiavellian traits.
Hindsight, so wonderful. Did we all get a tad too giddy and defensive (whether you were pro or anti?). Did we really need to protest by blog, petition and demonstration? Yes. Of course. Although I found far more people in favour of moving on-line than I have IRL.
We all entertained the idea because of all the rhetoric in the media and the resulting knee-jerks required to work through it all in our minds. It made us question what progression meant and what sacrifices were required if any and whether we would actually accept them. You couldn't ignore the lack of transparency, Brady mouthing off at any given opportunity and the hard sell from Levy. Even with the in-fighting within the Spurs fanbase, the debate (name calling aside) was pretty good - on both sides of the argument.
Sadly, much like if a club wants a manager out and a couple of hundred people turn up for a demo outside the front gates, you find there's always a majority bulk that let the minority do all the complaining. Much like when a bloke on a train doesn't bother getting up for a pregnant lady because he expects someone else to do the right thing. It's a trait this country does very well.
Easier for others to fight the fight than to commit above and beyond. And in addition you'll unlikely to have thousands turn up outside WHL to rally in favour of leaving N17, are you? You would just sit in your seat and wait for it to pan out.
Initially found myself trying to process the potential when it became apparent that the club believed it was the best option to move to East London. Tried to justify it until it was abundantly clear that I had no faith in the move. Was hardly even an epiphany to be honest. I just listened to my heart. It's how I'm built. Others were more pragmatic, logical in terms of the fiscal aspects - all based around the apparent immediate necessity to take advantage of the OS because we were made to believe the club believed it was this or nothing.
Very little, it seems can be taken at face value.
Onwards once more. No other choice. If the whole Stratford argument did not exist, the club would still need to progress (by expanding) so nothing has or should change just because a decision was made a few years back to award London with the Olympic games. The club should retain it's ambition. Onwards.
So here's hoping there is no more in-fighting, sitting on the fence and petitions. Just Tottenham Hotspur.
COYS.
Reader Comments (77)
the sorry result of this episode is a realisation that we will leave.
So we can concentrate on the football now ?
In case some of our supporters had not noticed ( too busy slagging each other off and making threats to each other re the OS move) we are having a half decent season despite the fact that on Saturday we had half our first team and the whole of our first choice mid-field missing.
Think the OS could be the making of West Ham. Suspect that because of the new ground, it's location and closeness to Canary Wharf, they will find new wealthy owners pretty quickly, the current trio will bail out and they will receive the type of investment currently enjoyed by Man City and Chelsea.
'Better hope Gold and Sullivan leave a jazz mag under each seat to keep the ICF busy with their fists.' There's no moral justification for letting you anywhere near a computer, is there? :D
The End.
'Better hope Gold and Sullivan leave a jazz mag under each seat to keep the ICF busy with their fists.'
Super.
I think if we stay there are some major positives to the debate. Sometimes you don't know what you have until its gone and it makes you appreciate the now.
For me Fulham away, losing 0 - 4 and I could not have been happier to sit amongst fellow spurs fans. Taking it all in. Just in case Tottenham as I knew it changed forever.
It was also a great history lesson with beautiful footage of the past.
Maybe these moments help bring our history to life and install what it means to be a Tottenham Hotspur Fanatic to the younger generations.
Hoping Milan will be another epic part of our history.
COYS
Busy this evening are you Spooky?
I can't see this being over, there is too much money at stake for Spurs. The boring fact is that European rules clearly prohibit one bidder receiving state aid when bidding for a Government contract. That alone gives Tottenham recourse through the courts. The whole thing has been handled very badly. By the Olympic commitee with their the leaks, the West Ham Porn barons with their threats of civil unrest if they lost and does anybody really believe that Levy is such an to be left in this humiliating position. Does the above make me ITK?
Seriously Harry. Its over for now so move on.
Machine - Thought best to get the blogs out of the way today. Tomorrow, missus is back at work after maternity. Baby is in nursery (my duty to take her and pick her up) and will probably have an internet blackout after 6pm what with me having to prepare a nice dinner.
And dessert.
If I were a West Ham fan I'd be gutted. Not only are they moving into a ground with an athletic track, but the solid 30,000 or so fans that do turn up now will be diluted by 30,000 Johnny-come-latelies, rendering the place void of atmosphere, and that's their best case scenario.
The more likely scenario is a few busy opening weeks (families for a pound) , followed by a massive drop off in support when the full horror of what's happened to their football club hits home. They'll then be rattling around in a stadium double the size of what they need with the hardcore support divided.
As for us, we never had any business there in the first place. It was ridiculous, and greedy, to think otherwise.
I don't believe we have to leave at all. We have the space where we are, and something can be done. You'll see.
Im just looking at our10 remaining games and see 3 top 5 games:
Man city V Spurs
Chelsea v Spurs
Liverpool V Spurs
Others
Chelsea V Man U
Liverpool V Man U
Chelsea V Man C
Liverpool V Man C
Arsenal V Liverpool
Arsenal V Man U
Man U V Chelsea
Its going to be very interesting!!
S106 £16 million - £3 million on a bloody car park
Heritage protection £60 million
Housing development cut by 50%
Spooky. Blogger and house husband.
Good luck.
Hotspurs - can the council actually do something about the heritage costs or not?
Hotspurs,
We have 12 games remaining and you've missed out the NLD.
If our strikers stop their strike action, we have every chance.
Yidal, I wish mate. All I want to see is games like the Inter home and away (a proper Spurs game), the comeback victory at the Emirates etc like everyone else. Problem is Levy may decide rolling the sleeves up and and getting stuck in may be the best thing he can do for the club in which case this episode will be on the agenda for some time to come. We'll see.
TMWNN, yes you are right but i see that as a certain win anyway!!
Whats the other game?
We had a hard run in last time but in a way its better to play these teams and keep control of our destiny.
Spooky - I've got a nursery waiting for a new occupant shortly (with some carefully chosen THFC merchandise to "start the brain washing" as my missus puts it). Hope it's going well for you!
I think the strength of the debate has shown the strength of our club. There are so many fans who are really passionate about Spurs - and more than a few of us delude ourselves thinking we really do know what's best ;o)
The two things that are undenyable:
1. there are lots of Spurs fans who want a season ticket but can't get one
2. transport around WHL isn't going to get any better (even with the NPD)
Let's back the able (although somewhat egg-faced) board of THFC to fix these two problems!
They have to negotiate with the Mayor of London, English Heritage and CABE. Does not look good!!
Spurs’ also offered TfL £2million towards the Tottenham Hale Station improvements, although TfL had asked for
£5.6million.
By the way, the Emirates Stadium took 4 years to achieve planning approval.
TMWNN - I think we actually want to see our strikers START their strike action...
TMWNN - I agree with you re the running track but suspect sooner or later they will get it ripped out.
Re West Hams future, their ground and it's location will make them a sought after commodity and my concern is that in 10 years time they will have new billionaire owners who have lavished money on them to the extent they have a top side playing in a fantastic stadium in front of 60,000 supporters whilst we are still playing at WHL in front of 36,000 supporters whilst Levy continues his argument with Lammy and the local authority.
If that is the case, their match day revenue will be double ours ( which is almost the case with ourselves and Arsenal at the moment ) and they will be moving forward whilst we stagnate.
Suspect Levys interest in the OS was so that he/ Enic could sell us on to one of the consortiums which will now buy West Ham.
Getting the OS will in my opinion improve West Ham, especailly if they find an Abramovich to fund them.
Four years? So we're what a year or two years into ours? Not even that is it?
nomorewhlegends,
It would be nice of them to wake the fuck up, eh?
The law of averages dictates that they have to start weighing in with goals soon. It's a scientific guarantee.
For interest others S106 costs include:
£3m to redesign the roads around the stadium,
£1.23m to implement a Controlled Parking Zone - you will love this one!!!,
£1.17m for improved walkways,
£300,000 for signage,
£1.2m to improve the walking route to White Hart Lane station,
£1.36m to build another lane on both sides of Tottenham High Road
£361,000 on improving cycle routes.
PS: Tottenham Gyratory system is to become a 2 way system once again!!!
Author, thats my point, there is a way to go yet!!
To be honest ist the English Heritage and CABE that are the problem!!
David that's a very overly dramatic view into the future. You're assuming we wont fix our problem. Doubt very much we wont expand.
You might be right DAVID, although I doubt Levy will still be arguing over the NDP in 10 years time. I also don't think he'll be going down the legal route over the OS. He needs to decide quickly whether he's going to shit, or get off the pot and let someone else have a crack at the bowl (stadium).
As for West Ham overtaking us; if we don't build bigger, it could happen, but it wouldn't have made us moving in on east London right. Can you imagine if the Olympics were to be held in Haringey (I know it's difficult) and West Ham came over and moved in to a new shiny stadium twice the size of ours?
If West Ham get retractable seating installed then they have a decent stadium. Not ideal but OK for a club of their current standing. They can then use this as a springboard to launch their club forward to a more initimate stadium or just force athletics out in 20 years when Coe et al are too old or dead to care.
Whatever their situation, we should not stop loving or defending our club. When all around us we are being labelled as corporate chancers or greedy, we should be backing the club we support and the chairman that has served us so well.
Let it not be forgotten that we were encouraged to bid by those making a decision so to say we never had a chance is inaccurate. The reality is that the pure weight of public and political opinion caused the OPLC to rethink their strategy.
To stand on sentiment is to also limit the club. A move to Stratford would not have killed the club's history as we always carry that with us. It would have been a massive springboard to a glorious future. A new stadium in a massively accessible and desirable location. AEG would have immediately bought naming rights for upwards of 150m and the sale of our current ground with it's resident and supermarket planning permissions would have achieved about 100m. Therefore new stadium paid for.
Let's not criticise Levy for bidding for it, he would have been foolish not to. We would have gotten over the north to East move. Arsenal moved from south to north and do you really think their fans give a toss about it? Since that move they've done quite well.
At the very least it's ensured that West Ham have had to work hard for the stadium which includes all manner of commerical partners and community schemes. Fair play to them if they think that will work but we are more advanced in our development as a club, as such, don't need to bend-over backwards to get a new stadium.
Only a narrow-minded and mediocre person without ambitions would raise objections to his team's emerging chance to get in a short time and in an affordable price a new, bigger and well placed stadium enabling thus his team to grow bigger, become possibly the biggest club in the city and compete among the world's elite, with the argument that it had to move from its current site to another nearby place inside the same city. Specially if this person can't propose and finance a real alternative plan. I think it is a real problem that there some supporters who prefer Spurs to be a “local” club than a club with an international allure with real chances to become the biggest club of London, bigger thus than Arse and Chelsky. The only real precondition is the club to keep its current name that connects it with its history and glories of the past.
@IoanX
Yawn.
It's also narrow minded to make the assumption that Stratford is the only option we have in the matter and that everyone should be jumping onto the bandwagon.
I don't agree with what was said about us having a chance with the OS. Sure , encouraged to bid, but to what purpose? I can't believe Levy, the OPLC and government didn't know deep down that people would object. Of course they would. The 14-0 illustrates that. Maybe one or two were stupid to think they could pull it off (Levy? Boris?) but in the end it was like one man against an army. The reason we all thought it might happen is because our bid was far better for football and athletics than what West Ham are offering with their running track.
Stratfordites seem to always ignore this point (made a few times in the past months):
If the whole Stratford argument did not exist, the club would still need to progress (by expanding) so nothing has or should change just because a decision was made a few years back to award London with the Olympic games. The club should retain it's ambition.
Come on people. In life you get opportunities, you take them and you never look back. But just because you, let's say, don't ask that girl out when you're a young man doesn't mean you'll never meet anyone else, fall in love and get married.
This is quite a poor attempt to build you a statue of Tottenham Hutspur “protector”. Spouting at people for not showing their faces in support of either staying or moving is a typical bullshit Lammy style. The pinnacle of the stupidity is adjudging those masses as rude and cruel which wouldn’t even give their seat to a preggo. I’d like to know how many times you showed your face affront Haringey Council and demanded they treat Spurs with respect and reason? You’re a hypocrite, pure and simple.
I'd be interested to hear how many of the everton fans who were against a move to kirkby, would change their mind now. Just reading an interesting article on the guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/feb/10/everton-accounts-joleon-lescott-manchester-city) last season everton finished in 8th position the 7 teams who finished above them were the 7 english teams with higher turnover values. the fans are hoping for investment but there is none coming, and they won't have a net spend on transfers anytime soon. I completely appreciate that we're nowhere near that situation. but I look at our rivals, man city, chelsea, arsenal, man united, I'll even chuck liverpool in that mix, all of them are generating much higher levels of income than us. The latest figures are United £286m; Arsenal £224m; Chelsea £209m; Liverpool £184m; City £125m; spurs £119m. Ok city are only generating an additional £6m but there figure grew by £35m over the last year and will keep going up. If we want to challenge the top we will need to make more money, anyone who claims otherwise is deluded only the gooners have managed to compete year on year without spending much. I'm sure almost all of us hope that this will occur from the NDP becoming viable again. I just hope in 10 years time that the numbers of people who are very happy that we didn't win the bid remain the same or grew, and people don't look back at this as a missed opportunity.
Now back to the important stuff, the last three games have truly put our season right back on track, clearly our strikers our still misfiring but I live in hope that they will soon get going. I reckon we are now in a four way battle for positions 2-5, I think we could finish in any of these positions, though I'd be happy with 4th.
Stratfordites, you lost to the pikeys, get over it. We need to move forward in Tottenham. If football domination at any cost is the be all and end all you're in for a very unhappy life.
Beetle, in English please.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing cool hand luka.
Before the submissions into the OPLC were made, it was absolutely clear that Tottenham had a chance to win. The general consensus was that although West Ham were favourites, spurs was the more logical bid. It was only when Seb Coe, the head of the IOC and 14 boroughs in london got involved that spurs chanced reduced to slim or next to nothing. However, to say 'we never had a chance' is not true at all.
In that case, why did ever get so hot and bothered about it, why were column inches filled by the day about it? Why did politians feel the need to waste time in commenting? Why did West Ham embarrass themselves with threats over rioting when it was so clear they would win? Because it simply wasn't the case. The OPLC invited us to bid because there was clear doubts over West Ham's initial offer. In the end, they signed up more partners than you'd think was humanly possible. Cricket, Live nations, athletics, local schools and charities. They got their finances together with public money and a guarantee from both owners. A major risk on their part for something they were dead certs to win don't you think?
At one time WHam's was the only bid on the table. There would have been outrage at this bid because their plan was was to hack it to bits and only give limited access to athletics. So we were invited to bid so that we became the evil interlopers who were going to destroy the Olympic Ideals and legacy. All of a sudden the WHam bid becomes immensely popular and they are the saviours of the Olympic Dream. Faces saved.
We were mugged pure and simple.
Levy should make a one off statement exposing the sham, ensuring that the running track is enshrined into the future of the stadium then move on.
We need a 60,000 seater stadium and I guess we are well along the way to achieving this with the NPD. It just needs the bodies to move their position a bit to give us the incentive.
By the way retractable seating? Impossible unless incorporated in the fabric of the original build.
Okay, read Beetle's post again.
Firstly I'm entitled to say what I want much like you seem to live in a world that deems you always on the side of right (with me swimming in a sea of wrong). It's hardly hypocritical to state the bleeding obvious, is it?
Apparently, according to Levy most fans were in favour of the move. Most fans I know were not. Not everyone sang up at home games (apparently they did more than that in the away fixtures which is no surprise). I'm merely pointing out a generalisation that people don't tend to demonstrate in numbers, because someone else will turn up with a banner and do just that.
A WH fan pointed this out by laughing at the fact 200 people demo'ed at the Lane (if that). That's 200 people bothering to get there early to make their point heard. That's a minority. Less than a minority. You honestly think ONLY 200 people didn't want to move? What about the thousands that signed the petition? Not having a dig at any of these people or others with valid reasons for not turning up.
Go on miss the point again.
Beetle is a troll.
I would expect that the majority of fans who would support a move to Stratford aren't season ticket holders, so expecting people who can't get a ticket to turn up in N17 to support a move seems a little unlikely. Of course more season ticket holders would turn up to protest the reverse... they have a seat at the game to go to ;)
Reminds me of the Liverpool protests (or was it ManU) where they protested about the ownership by organising a march before a match from the pub they were going to be in anyway to the stadium that they were going to anyway. Now _thats_ commitment.
While I remember, I understand the chanting during the match (at the Bolton game, for example), but I can't help feel it doesn't really show the team respect. They're playing 'for us' out there and we're singing about a stadium move. It was 1-1 most of the time, we should have been telling them to get a freakin goal. Mind you, players always seem to say they don't really hear the singing as their mind is so in the game.
"This is quite a poor attempt to build you a statue of Tottenham Hutspur “protector”
This is a mighty suspicious.
I think some people take the blogging community way too seriously. Protector? Give over. I just find the time to write about Spurs. Said it a 1000 times, there are people who go to the Lane who don't bother at all with this type of thing that are fare more articulate and astute and funny than most if not all of the Spurs blogs you'll read so stop pretending you think I think I'm the saviour of free yiddo speech in the name of the almighty cockerel. It's tiresome.
Beetle isn't a troll. He's just a very angry man.
Also to add to Spooky's point - The demo was at such an early stage in the process and Im sure would have escalated much further had we been the succesful bidder.
I don't care about any new 'stadia' tonight. I think Harry is doing such a good job that the team are playing the way they are with the number of injuries (Defoe and Pav on strike) we have. I think that Bale will play in Milano and just wish the papers would 'shut TF' up about ManU offering £40m. I mean £40 F**king million. £80m maybe but never, ever to ManU.
Still in limbo...
As for recent performances, superb attitude, momentum building, winning mindset instilled and they're stepping up to the challenge... all aboard the Spurs fun bus!
Vic,
The pikeys' idea of retractable seating is a running track strewn with deck chairs.
Brady has got no idea and is painting rainbows for those poor hammers. If they're to turn that stadium into a 60,000 seater with running track without starting again, the lower tier (the only permanent bit) can't be changed. They can't have retractable seats because they'll be nowhere to retract them to. She's been going on about her architect and how they plan to counter the lack of atmosphere due to the track by some magical roof design that, funnily enough, no one has seen. The whole thing is a right royal cock up and the farther we distance ourselves from it (metaphorically speaking) the better.
Out of the only two teams who currently look unreachable, one has £800m of debt and one has money, but refuses to spend it. We're competing right now. We have, according to Levy himself, 36000 people waiting to help service the stadium debt. Let's forget Stratford and look to the future.
When we eventually do have a bigger stadium in Tottenham, we'll look back at this Stratford fiasco, not as a 'missed opportunity', but as an embarrassing footnote in the great history of our club.
SPOOKY - ' I just find the time to write about Spurs.'
I for one am glad you do...You throw in the odd curved ball but most blogs are screamers.
Keep up the good work !!!
PS.. I for one will be very happy to see the back of the "S" saga
Yes as a club we need to grow but at what cost ...
Do we really need to sell our soul to some power crazed oil sheik and become another Man Shitty plaything ?
We have a history at the Lane
We have had success at the lane
We have had big names at the Lane
We have had hard times at the Lane
But through good times and bad times THFC has kept a loyal and fanatical following
DL may not be everyones vision of leadership but he's nobodys fool
He has been instrumental in bringing the glory days back to the Lane and I am sure that he will continue to scheme until we have our 60,000 seats (hopefully in N17)
Long live TOTTENHAM HOTSPURS