Show me the way to go home
Thursday, February 10, 2011 at 4:12PM Most would agree that we could probably/possibly build the NDP but not remain competitive on the pitch, but could do so (remain competitive) if we moved to East London. Hence the reason why Levy wants Stratford. It's viable in terms of planning and fiscal reasons compared to the NDP. I'm sure we'll learn more about the reasons in the coming weeks. Perhaps the NDP is a complete non-starter because Levy failed to forecast the present day in terms of property development/value and sponsorship. Inconvenient truths and half-truths and assumptions wherever you look at the minute.
So hypothetically, if there was no Olympics and no site/stadium, if it simply was not an option (just work with me on this) - what would Spurs do to resolve the progression problem?
Levy has reached a stage where the club (on and off the pitch) is doing superbly well so he has to make a move (metaphorically, calm down) to consolidate. Mainly because football has changed and staggering progression by building on success on the field was something we completely missed out on in the 1990s and that particular brand of template is no longer on offer in these ridiculous EPL days of excess.
(It's going to bottleneck at some point I guarantee it, and we're fortunate enough to have such a loyal fanbase because other clubs have already began to suffer on the pitch and in the stands)
Anyways...
There has to be another way, right? It might not offer the immediate fix Stratford does or perhaps it's not as easy as a move to East London would be - but we're talking about a club that has been around for almost 130 years. A few more years will not cripple and kill us. We've competed at the top level every decade since the 50s and the reason we've not done better ( the upper tier top level in terms of the title) is because of the monumental cock ups that lead to us almost going under back in '91. We lagged behind and yet we are doing mighty fine now considering we were also half crippled by on the pitch bad management and lack of direction at times from the board.
Obviously we all agree we've never been a title challenging side. But to retain the ambition to be one is a good way to look ahead. Hence the reason for the NDP and (sadly) the reason why Stratford became Levy's number one choice. The emotive issue is something I want to side step for a moment.
Levy fixed us. Made mistakes, learnt from them and now we're at a crossroads where we are threatened with having to leave N17 if we don't get the OS, which according to everyone, we wont.
So surely Levy has a Plan B? And no I don't mean asking Crouch to lay down and build a 60,000 all-seater on his back.
It's become so cut-throat all this - move or be doomed - that I wonder how much of it is based on second guessing what Levy's strategy is and people accepting sentimental sacrifice for the sake of the apparent sudden urgency to be able to afford to pay someone 200k per week to play for us - because that's what it will take to compete with certain other clubs if that's the ilk of club you want. If that's what it takes to compete.
Just throwing it out there. No Stratford (in this pretend world I've created which might well transcend into our world from tomorrow morning, what with it already turning up a little early late last night).
Just a hypothetical based on Stratford never being an option. What and where do we look to take the club if WHL can not serve our ambitions? Stick or stay?
One thing I'm hoping for is that whatever happens tomorrow (11am press conference) Levy takes us forwards as one entity of Spurs fans rather than everyone playing percentages on what side of the fence the majority allegedly sit on whilst the rest.
Hypothetical. For today.
(ps - excuse the roughness of this blog article, stinking headache)
Reader Comments (125)
Pro Stratford lot - what now? All the rhetoric and tunnelled vision, surely in your eyes were a doomed to failure now?
Olympic site or nothing my arse.
Excellent news. I just hope it stands.
Now let's stand back and watch Levy spit his dummy out.
So what next?
Will it really be any cheaper to design a new plan, buy up new ground and build somewhere else than rebuilding a new stadium where we are now?
BTW, The press conference on the announcement is bizarre, fronted by a scottish lady, and sat next to an american. so tow of the decision makers won't ever have to fund their own decisions, brilliant!
I am pleased that WHU united have got it, in the same way I've said to our own fans 'be careful what you wish for' the same should have applied to them. I just hope (probably in vain) that my taxes don't have to bail out those insuferable bastards and that drag queen brady, in five years time.
However, I feel sorry for the O's, at least levy would have made the tickets unaffordable to the locals. I hope we carry on loaning them players until they are in the same league as the hammers when they meet in the middle.
I want to say 'thank god this is now over' but sadly the stadium issue looks set to dominate our season, and the forseeable future of the club. Now the focus is on the anticipated difficulties we will have in competing financially with other big clubs, because of our lack of 60,000 seater stadium or the drain of funding NDP - there's already articles popping up about it, see the Guadian for one. I'm massively concerned that the type of press we are about to get, particularly as champs league next year begins to look less likely, is going to take its toll on the confidence of some of our players - Modric and Bale in particular. The bids will come for both in the summer and unless the club as a whole has a little more direction, who can say whether their heads will be turned? I just think that there has been some spectacular mismanagement in terms of our approach, which has aggravated the uncertainty that comes with trying to stay in the top four for the first time. I don't mean to sound too bleak about it all, but I'm fairly depressed at Levy's lack of foresight here.
I grew up going to WHL & the Park Lane from 1976. We were different people then and the world was a different place. We used to wait until people got off the bus before trying to get on, we used to queue at the bus stop and stand up for women on the tube. Even then, the rivers of piss washing down the steps were a smell to challenge the hardest of stomachs and the feeling of a crowd surging when you were trapped at the front made you fearful for if you'd see the next day. I remember seeing the look of terror on the face of the first Girlfriend I took to a game.
I applaud the Germans if they've worked out how to do it well, good for them. We can't even go 90 minutes without smoking in the toilet, what makes you think we'd be any more responsible toward each other in a crowd?
Sorry, the context of the thread has moved back to OS and away from standing terraces!
TMWNN, the short answer is probably 'yes'.
Take the overall design, but takeout all of the temporary works components by going ot a brownfield site, with less planning restrictions (or intereference with other third party stakeholders) and better transport links, could save £10's milions.
That or move to wembley whilst we cut the programme for delivery at WHL, albeit that doesn't answer the transport issue.
Tricky,
So where is this place with better transport links and less planning restriction?
Astromesmo,
I know you, unlike some, were never actively pro-Stratford, but at least you'll be able to get a ticket away to the pikeys.
That's if the poor blighters stay up of course.
Blimey - Stick a pin in a map most places round London and you'll come up with better accessibility than where we are!!! Hemmed in by a canal, a railway, condensed housing, a school & an Industrial Estate... And 20 mins walk from the nearest tube... It's hardly Piccadilly is it!?
Still, it could be worse and at least we all know what we're dealing with now.
No point being down or unrealistic about the future. A new stadium was always going to be in a few year time, not tomorrow. In the meantime we will remain a selling club, we just need to keep finding good young players and bringing them through.
I expect Modric and Bale to leave at some point, but I rather we got top money for them while we can, I never want to see a Campbell situation again. Same as with Carrick and Berbatov, the money we received was re-invested in good young players.
If Gareth is not interested in signing a new deal then this summer will probably present our best chance of getting silly money for him from someone like City. Could the Italians afford him? - probably not.
Modric signed up a long term deal so it will take a lot of money to get him, we can just do what Arsenal did with Fabregas.
We will all still be Spurs long after the players have gone. Let's enjoy what we have right now and if we can keep Chelsea out of the CL this year then it's game on for sure. Another year of CL money plus selling Pav and Robbie potentially could part fund a new striker.
All to play for still. Milan over the next month so we can't be depressed!
COYS. Today is a good day.
We can always go there in the cup!?
(Fielding the reserves and the kids of course)
"Mes - the Germans do it very well." Spooky
I was going to post that myself. I can't speak for the rest of England but I have attended matches at the lane as well as Bundesliga matches in Hanover, Berlin and Munich. The pre-match security measures in Germany were pretty much invisible, in fact fewer police horses and cops visible than in Tottenham. Also, I didn't have to squirm through an S-shaped turnstyle to get into the stadia in Germany (I am genuinely curious how some of our "bigger" fans manage to get through those gates!)
Of course the standing sections in German stadiums are not the bare stair like stands of old and that space is ticketed i.e. limits to how many can get in. I'm not saying it's a simple fix to all of our problems, but surely it is an idea worth exploring. As far as legacies/reputation go, I'd much rather be the club that brought back standing to the modern game than the first club in the modern era to do an NFL-Franchise like flit out of its home area.
'Most places round London' - a bit vague.
No. A bigger stadium is 'viable' in Tottenham on the current site. It always has been, but Levy would lose all face and credibility now if he chose to do the correct thing and look again at WHL.
Same as with Carrick and Berbatov, the money we received was re-invested in good young players.
Diaz, sorry, can't agree with that at all. We still haven't replaced Berbatov. And given the amount of abuse Huddlestone still gets on this and other forums, some would say we haven't replaced Carrick yet either. GIven our demonstrated shortcomings in recent transfer windows, we have to get rid of this "we got paid stupid money so it's a good bit of business" mentality.
I'm not so sure, he's not really that kind of guy or particularly bothered I think about losing face. I get the impression that he's pretty thick-skinned. No, I think he's just your average hard nosed jewish businessman & more power to him for it.
WHL will get looked at again. We all hope it will, just I think that this time a lot of the caveats will need to be lifted and the development be more in line with the current economical situation. The NDP in it's current form is unworkable in the current climate but that's not to say that ALL stadia on the site would be such. I guess time will tell.
And yes, 'most places in London' is a bit vague but it was humour. You know, that thing we all used to laugh at before we pointed at each other in the street and it was 'them & us'.
I think we all need to get a bit of the 'H' word back in our lives.
Sorry Astromesmo, but the fact that so many Tottenham fans seem to be unhappy that we're not moving to east London has thrown me a bit.
Ziegemonster - meant the team rather than individual players, not as a like for like.
When we have got large amounts for 1 player the trend has been a number of players have come in to the squad.
100% agree as players Carrick and Berbatov have not been replaced. Although Huddlestone has improved a lot in my opinion, Berbatov was a rare talent. Watching him and Keane was worth the money. Berba v Crouch = wry smile.
I don't know how old you are but I'm guessing that it's just that you and I and others like us are relics of a different age. When I grew up it was all about if you went into the local factory from school or not... Now my daughter in all seriousness is trying to decide whether she wants to go to college in London, New York, LA or Sydney. The world changes, not always for the better but it changes.
Fighting the fight that the N17's guys have done has been good in terms of the community and in terms of the history of the club but it also has to look toward the future - And I felt it didn't do that enough. The kids that sit wide-eyed in Eastlands don't sit there yearning for the Kippax. Yes, keep Tottenham in Tottenham but there it needs to move on. That the traditions of history should be learned and respected but that we can't hold future generations of support for the club hostage to the things we hold precious.
Progress is inevitable, inexorable. We might not like it but it will come sure as the grave & taxes. What will also be inevitable is that some compromise will need to be made, by everyone. There is no wrong and no right in that and no position of moral authority. To assume so, would be to play straight into the hands of those that argued against the 'elitist' stance of a small percentage of the Anti-Startfordians.
Time to move on, for all of us but hopefully only moving within a few feet of where we currently are!
mes
Thanks for your response to my post. i am a bit gobsmacked, wasn't looking/expecting any response. I was only putting a theory into the debate, nothing more ,nothing less. Cheers anyway for giving your time.
Mes - Stratford was not the answer.
Hopefully the next 'suggestion' is.
Well thank fuck it's all over now.
Now Mubarak can bring his mum over and his sister with the giant vagina, to the great WHL.
Mes,
I'm not sure about 'relic' (just yet) but I was born in north London (Muswell Hill) and first watched a game at WHL in the late '70s. Man and boy and all that guff. I'll admit some (most?) of my comments are irrational rants that are primarily used for me to let off steam, but what I'll never agree with is the rationalisation of moving Spurs to east London. And what has really got my goat, is the underhanded coercive way the board have gone about it. I'll always remember Levy as the bloke who tried to move Spurs to Stratford on a lie. Yes we need a bigger stadium, but unless there is absolutely 0% chance of doing that in Tottenham, I don't want to know. I really don't care about kids yearning for the Kippax (and isn't Manchester City still in Manchester?), Kop, Shed, Chicken run etc. I had the hump for a week when the shelf went and was disgusted when the ledge had to have seats (almost doubling my £180 season ticket in the process), but for me, there is only Tottenham. What other clubs do or don't do is of no consequence to me. I don't even live in England now, let alone north London, but where ever I am or have been, I feel safe in the knowledge that my football club is in Tottenham, the only anchor in my life. Start fucking around with that and I'd be all at sea.
@tricky
My comparison with Arsenal wasn't in relation to the costs of development. It was in relation to the increased revenues from a new stadium. Arsenal's annual revenues (excluding stadium naming rights deal with Emirates) rose by nearly £60 million as a direct result of the move. So it is not unreasonable to expect that Spurs' revenues could rise by £20-40 million per annum.
However, Arsenal's development costs were just as high as Spurs' for the NDP - £450 million - since, in addition to building the stadium (for £230 million), they had to buy, relocate and build Islington's waste and recycling plant. They also had to build low cost housing. And they didn't, contrary to popular belief, receive any public funding. The only support they received was in the issuing of CPO's by Islington council in order to enable the development.
The £450 million figure is for the entire Northumberland Development Project. I was talking more specifically about the cost of building the stadium.
These same reservations would apply to building the two new stadiums at Stratford and Crystal Palace. Yet they were clearly deemed viable.
It's an interesting point. But, again, Spurs would have had to take on £250 million debt to build both new stadiums in Stratford and Crystal Palace.
That's precisely why I haven't tried claim that Spurs would earn anything like Arsenal's extra £60 million per annum from their new stadium. £20-40 million is, however, a reasonable expectation. If the lower end of that spectrum still wasn't realistic, you would have to ask whether it was worth building a new stadium at all.
The cost for Wembley included:
- paying £130 million for the freehold of the property
- a footprint up to twice that of the new WHL
- a 90,000 capacity (not 56,000)
- huge areas of high quality, high cost corporate facilities
- two complex and highly expensive engineering features: the arch and the sliding roof
- political interference, leading to cost overruns
- mismanagement and strikes, also leading to cost overruns
- legal disputes
- a one year delay to completion
The Emirates stadium itself cost £230 million.
The Olympic stadium - it's a mystery to everyone why it has cost so much. But what is known is that much of the cost was sunk into buying and decontaminating the land.
Not confusing them, no. Just using the one to facilitate the other.
Mes,
My motive for mentioning Stratford was not to label you as one of the pro Stratford crowd. I did so purely to point out that moving to Stratford would also require that Spurs take on significant debt. And if they could do so to build two stadiums (at Stratford and Crystal Palace), then they could do so to build one stadium in Tottenham.
You say that far less debt would be required if Spurs moved to Stratford. Yet David Keirle has said that the two stadiums, combined, would cost as much as the new White Hart Lane. So, that's £250 million.
Finally, I agree completely that all will depend on to what extent Spurs' real threat to leave Tottenham will prompt the various authorities to do more to help Spurs to realise the NDP. Perhaps CABE and English Heritage will relent on the amount of housing that Spurs can build? Perhaps Haringey and TfL will lower their demands for planning gaincontributions? Who knows? But there is at least a chink of hope in an article in the Telegraph today which suggests that that is exactly what Levy is planning.