A nail in the coffin of Stratford?
Thursday, November 25, 2010 at 2:54PM Wasn't expecting the Boris decision today. Happy days he's approved it. The below article was written pre-decision (with the last paragraph or so amended post-decision), but as there is still some way to go (at least until Levy makes a statement on the official site) I'll continue to entertain the Stratford debate for arguments sake. Because going on the last statement made by the club, it's still a feasible option for the board.
All of the below (a mix of random musings and thoughts on the last statement) is still more or less relevant in that the final decision on our move will remain with the club.
It's now down to us.
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Back onto the Stratford debate.
For anyone who wants the club to place heritage and history above and beyond the urgency to build it (and they will come) somewhere outside N17 then click here. Financial stability and growth is imperative, no doubt, but it's not quite gun to the head trigger to be pulled make a decision now or else. Is it?
Or is it?
If Northumberland doesn't get the green light (from all approvers) or Levy decides against it - is Stratford the only viable option? Unless there are underlying agendas as to why ENIC would want to get the ball rolling quick sharp. Not pulling a Lammy here and suggesting anything sinister. Just that their roadmap might have the here and now as prudent to moving forwards with an approved plan rather than left scratching our heads for potentially many more years.
I know - in comparison to others - we are 5/6 years behind and some. But it's not like we've been financially crippled in recent years and arguably we have competed in the transfer market with clubs who have double/triple our gate receipt revenue. Yes, we have 30,000+ waiting for season tickets. Our fan base is a strong one. Our development on the pitch is hardly being effected. But I do get it, get the stadium sorted now and in 5 or so years we'll be raking it in and you can't dispute the extra monies won't help us maximise the club further. Won’t count for much if it isn't working on the pitch. And I'd hate to think we are going to place all our eggs in the one basket with what goes on off it.
The football landscape is changing and emotional attachments are sold on for future investment. It's hard to accept which is why we are divided. Some wont let go, others want to conquer new territory with just a nod to the past. Them lot down the road left their original swamp and moved into another, remaining within North London. There are hardly any alternative options for us within N17 other than Northumberland/WHL.
Yes, I want us to get stronger and yes if the only way to dodge the bullet is to opt for East London then our hands our tied, but I can't help but believe we are more Jack Bauer than we are Jack on top of the hill, tumbling down.
Hopefully Stratford is taken out of the equation. Ask yourself, if Stratford was not in the equation - what would we do? Settle for nothing? Of course not. And there's your answer. Jack Bauer - never say die and do everything in your power to preserve. Let only the weak fall down and break their crown.
Again, some of us are back arguing whether Levy is using his Machiavellian tactics booklet to instigate some positive action from the local authorities or he's considering the brand of THFC has out grown the siren-ridden badlands of Tottenham. You can take a name out of Tottenham but you can never take Tottenham out of the name. Or something. A move away is just a new chapter in our history, what came before it will not be forgotten. There are countless philosophical for and against arguments to be had.
Last week Levy released an open letter/statement on the OS. Strategically (for the conspiracy freaks) not that long after Lammay's comments about Levy being serious about moving Spurs to Stratford were shared on Twitter. Again, if this is a tag-team to heighten awareness of why the Northumberland project is stagnating in theory then bravo. If it's not then at this very late late stage, it's either ballsy hard ball from Levy or desperation to save the N17 vision by gaining public sector assistance. You could say the gun is pointing at their head, trigger pull at the ready as much as it's pointing at ours. To dare is to do, right?
One issue is funding from the public sector where money is probably going to be prioritised for a dozen other projects to aid with unemployment and housing etc. I guess in terms of long term investment it's probably worth looking at the work we are trying to do for the community.
I don’t quite grasp how it all works politically but in the initial survey Spurs conducted surely they would have understood the potential for additional costs and problems with funding outside of the clubs power to invest?
As a side note - according to one or two people who work in civil engineering - they say all this listed buildings drama is much ado about nothing and that in several years they will probably be knocked down. Which is an expensive irony. My argument has always been - why have these listed buildings been left alone and allowed to degrade for so long but now suddenly it's vital they are retained and have to be pencilled into a re-design? Don't answer that question, it's obvious why.
As for the Olympic Stadium being our original choice, did this not get rejected out of hand because fans did not want to move from our current home? Anyone care to share?
And re: Stratford and travel, to be honest I can see it being carnage, thousands upon thousands of people using the one station (yes I know it has plenty of routes in and out and platforms and overground trains etc). Try using it on any working night from Monday to Friday. Carnage. I guess much like Seven Sisters is carnage, but at least fans disperse thanks to the walk/bus journey down the high road to the station and others opting for the over-ground to Liverpool Street. Also, three soul-destroying words for ya: The Central Line. Welcome to a world of signal failures.
Re: Stratford (and travel again) - The Olympic games will probably be a decent enough test for the transport there. I'm sure what with the money spent it will cope admirably. And if I wanted the easy option I would actually opt for the move because I could travel in from Essex within 30 minutes or so with a guaranteed seat every time. But my travel arrangements for match-day are hardly pressing.
Like I keep saying, you travel to see your team no matter what.
These are not serious discussion points by the way, I'm just pointing out you can make anything look big or small look bad or good thanks to personal opinion. And yes, Tottenham is not a great place to look at and there's plenty to moan about but its got its charm and character not because of what it is from one day to the next but because of what it is on match-days. And I guess my point here can be hijacked (I did say it myself to be fair in the last Stratford article - linked at the end of this article) that it’s the fans that make the experience worthwhile. But it's glued together by the identity of the club and where it stands at the moment in N17. To say Stratford is five miles away, then we may as well move to any place in London because 'you can still get to it quickly by tube'. Any choice locations South of the river?
One thing to note, we've acquired most of the land for the Northumberland project. I know it can be easily sold on (you would hope, surely, shopping centre where once Mackay and Blanchflower graced the ball around), but again, unless I'm ignoring the business sense Levy has used in also bidding for Stratford, I just think we are far too involved to give up on N17.
And moving further North of Tottenham is pretty much on par with moving to Stratford, in terms of moving. The whole point is to stay in N17 and not move out of Tottenham. Gun to head permitting. If we can't build on the current site.
Yes it would be cheaper/easier to move to Stratford. I get it. I appreciate the travel infrastructure is there, ready and willing. Yes we would appeal to tourists and day-trippers. But since when has any of this really mattered? Or is making as much money possible going to be the reason we evolve as a club?
You support Spurs. You will travel to see them. You won't bemoan a walk to and from the station.
"Any new stadium option must necessarily be one which is feasible in both land acquisition and financing terms" - Levy.
So was the Northumberland Project ever feasible?
Of course it was/is. Compare it to Stratford and it isn't. First choice or second?
I'd be interested to see the club possible survey all the current season ticket holders and everyone on the waiting list - to gauge opinion. Yes or no. Just the one question. For demographic purposes.
One more thing - I'm not planning on throwing water balloons of urine over the West Stand entrance here. I think these types of discussions have a value because of the arguments for and against shared by supporters of the club. I actually think nobody is completely wrong and nobody is completely right. What I do believe is - if you want something bad enough then you fight for it. Underhanded in the shadows or out in the open throwing punches.
I want us to stay in N17.
Boris has today approved the plans. No surprise. It was never in doubt. It's now up to us to push ahead with them. Still a question with the public money we want. It's still one step closer.
In Levy we trust. We have to. He's the one responsible for representing us.
N17: Home is where the heart is
Reader Comments (108)
Third option.
Stay where we are and upgrade facilities at WHL
Harness the Internet to bring all home games at least on Spurs TV
£10 a throw possible income £500,000 per match. Use this predicted income to cut a deal with franchise holders (Sky)
Feasible? No idea, but it's a suggestion that is doing the rounds.
The Internbet is the future lets get on board now and get a good seat.
By the time we develop the new stadium wherever it is it might be out of date.
Are there any figures for redeveloping the existing WHL stadium? Capciity, cost.
Studies must have been done.
Lads well done on your champ league exploits you have been amazing to watch and Bale is wasted being welsh.Being honest you would never ever get the OS as Newham Council would object to it, The police would object to it and the prem league would object to it as you are infringing on another teams borough. Stratford is west ham land in the borough of Newham so we are the only soloution. Even orient come under Walthem Forest. Hopefully if and when we get it we will bring football back to the common man by making ticket prices cheap as if not the ground will be half empty. Good luck again lads in the champ league.
Finance is the stumbling block. When the ground got re-designed we must have come up short. First time round, naming rights and exclusive seat bonds etc probably covered our lot. We need the government/public sector money otherwise this will go tits up.
Hammertime - hand on heart do you want your club to move to Stratford? Honestly?
Sorry lads we have no chance with public money what with the current economic state of the country.
Doesn't the Secretary of State and Haringey still have to approve? Doubt they wont if Boris has rubber stamped it. Great news any ways hope we can lay to rest moving out of North London now.
I think the Government have an option to reject the application, but I don't think they have to approve it as such, as Boris has already done so.
Let's just hope we don't have to make sacrifices on the pitch in order to improve off it.
January's window could be a tell-tale look at what lies ahead!
Far from over this. Nothing will happen till next summer when a decision has to be made on the OS. Still think this is going to come down to money, no matter with Levy says.
Hammertime,your stadium will be half empty regardless,particually if you do a Southampton,Sheff Wednesday & spiral into freefall which looks like happening.........As for us,what a great week..!!COYS
Step closer but I expect Levy to keep the door open to East London. It's still on paper more feasible than staying in N 17. Down to those extra monies being found now.
Please sir can we have some more?
Stratford is a clusterfuck.
Imagine another tier around the current stadium,it would be awesome,we could still have more corporate suits,
even better atmosphere and would surely cost far less than the estimated £450 million.
The North and South stands would give us a minimum 9,000 extra seats =45,000 . East stand part rebuild
with another 6,000 seats = 51,000 ,then the West stand. I am sure it can be done.Forget about doing Haringey's
job of housing the local work shy.
I'm pretty certain that re-developing WHL is far too expensive which is why its not a viable option. Not sure how exactly but perhaps the work they would need to do would force the club out of N17 to a ground share. Amongst other things.
Brilliant play by Levy. He's just using Stratford for the political reasons outlined countless times before. We need to get public money invested and we need TFL to sort the transport out which will help us and help the surrounding area and businesses. I honestly believe we won't fail now. One by one they fall.
Sir Keith Mills interview you might have seen/not seen:
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Sir Keith sees this as the “crossroads season” for Spurs and is well aware that, to keep up with the League's elite, they need a bigger ground. By next March, fans will discover whether that means a new home at White Hart Lane or a move to the Olympic Stadium.
“If the Olympic Park legacy company decides our bid is the preferred one, then we'll put all our efforts behind trying to move there,” he says. “If we get a 60,000-seat stadium in the Olympic Park at a lower cost than we can in Haringey, the club will have less debt. Fans would never forgive us for landing the club with so much debt that we can't go and buy players.”
He accepts the downside of moving away from the original home of Tottenham but says there are upsides.
“We'll be moving to a part of London that is 100 per cent more accessible; we'll generate more revenue; it's closer to Canary Wharf and to the City; and it'll attract more sponsorship,” he says.
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Let's hold off the celebrations. I still can't work out what Levy is working towards.
Yep i want the hammers to move to Stratford as this for us is a once in a lifetime chance to try to become a biggish club. Upton park is worn out and tired and this will give us the chance to build for a proper future. The stadium is world class and if we get it we will move up a level as a club. My season ticket will be cheaper as well as prices will have to tumble. Our crowds have stated to dip this season but that is because we are so awful and prices are so high. Even man utds crowds are dropping.
If financing the new stadium design in Tottenham is a problem, let's just build a cheaper stadium that looks less like a space ship/giant toilet bowl and more like a football stadium. Perhaps a 20k-30k bigger version of what we've got now.
I understand that not having escalators will be a big miss for those who moan about the hike from the Seven Sisters, but why can't we just keep it simple? Just build it big with more toilets and bars.
Also, if Levy is trying to call the council's bluff and pressure them/the government into part funding the rebuild, then surely this planned demonstration goes against the club and everyone associated with it by weakening Levy's hand.
I can't see us moving and until the Olympic decision has been made in favour of us or the pikeys, everyone should just chill. In the unlikely event it's awarded to us, then will be the time for action and mass protests.
The North and South stands have been designed so that another tier can be added, how much would that cost?
they would have to develope one stand at a time,or put they away fans in the stand as it is being redeveloped.
(joking) or rent olympic stadium until WHL has the new tier in place.
Hammertime - Would you not demolish the stadium? It's not purpose built for football. Not sure what West Ham's plans are. I know if we got it would build it up again from scratch.
Yeah Hammertime its called decline/freefall....COYS
Back in the day, we used to leave our house at 12 for a 3 o clock kick off. Took at least hour and a half to get to the ground and an hour to queue and get in.
Fuck going East, we're Spurs and we know we are.
Levy will sort it. Talk about Harry being the right man at the right time and having a squad to be proud of, Levy hasn't let us down yet. He fucked around a bit with Ramos and Co, and did a Brutus on MJ, but he got there in the end. He learnt, like we all are.
That new development looks the dogs in graphics. Levy wants that.
All IMO of course.
COYS
Spooky. Letter to the chairman has to be the cards.
West Ham will lose their identity as this edgy Green St club bit on the norty side if they move to Stratford. They will turn into a full blown family club. It will be like Reading moving into London.
Keep it at N17!
N17 should be lobbying David Lammy about the English Heritage and some daft architect society who live on a different planet.They are to blame for Levy looking elswhere for our stadium, their crap ideas about keeping some delapidated buildings and having to redesign the area has added another £60 million to the cost.
Haringey council should have put pressure on English heritage ,now they are crapping themselves.Serves them right.
If you're going to spend several hundred million either way then you're as well building new. I don't think renovating the existing building frame is much on an option. You can't suddenly stick a estate car body on an allegro chasis, let alone the lost revenue of only having a couple of working stands plus relocation. It's pretty pointless going to all that cost for 9,000 extra seats. The plan to rebuild remains favourite but everyone needs to work together to make it happen.
Can we really afford to build in N17 without any Public sector funding? Imagine the impact on the competitiveness of the club on the pitch if we had to fund it all, however much the naming rights made.
Can we afford to turn down a brand new shiny stadium post olympic stadium being knocked down if it became available once we become preferred bidders?
Like it or not, we are in a race to ensure the prosperous future of the club through having a bigger better stadium than anyone ese in the capital. When 2018 is finally confirmed, it'll be our stadium that is selected as a venue.
Sometimes it's clear that the future is more important than the past.
Tone why do you give a shit what happens to West Ham?
We have not had an identity for many years and have been a total joke for many years. we need the OS to build for a better future. Brady has the running track in hand whatever that means so im excited to move if we get the go ahead.
It's looking like Levy is working towards that public sector funding to make it happen, so stripping all the rhetoric aside - for the good of the club he's working towards our best possible future. Get the funding and it's all sorted. If we don't, as I've admitted, I'd have to swallow hard and move on.
Believe me if we get the OS within say 10 years we will be a force. We will be debt free with minimal overheads to pay towards the stadium. Of course we need prem league footie for that to happen though
Or is making as much money possible going to be the reason we evolve as a club?
One argument would be that it's not entirely our choice - this is competition, the marketplace, survial of the fittest/richest at work. Such is the curse of modern football, Premiership, Sky 4, oligarch owners and all. If other clubs are prepared to move out of historic, atmospheric stadiums to build bigger but more souless bowls (Arsenal, City already there, Chelsea and Liverpool taking steps in that direction, Newcastle playing in a 52k stadium), and then start making more money than we do, start paying players more and start enjoying more success than we do, then we're left behind - it may not look that way at the moment but in 10 years time where do you expect us to be?
Levy might not be able to raise the finance for NDP. It's not even like a mortgage where the asset you're buying retains its value and provides collateral for the lender. A large, gleaming football stadium in N17 costing £450m to build isn't worth £450m to anyone else, so there's no asset for the lender to reclaim against the loan. The banks will scrutinise our accounts and see how close to the wind we sail financially - the club only turns a profit each year at the moment through transfer dealings. N17 may be dear to our hearts but it won't be an attractive location for non-matchday revenue activities like conferences and concerts that are pouring plenty of money into Arsenal's coffers at the moment.
Why should you get public funding though???? Thats just plain wrong as was Arsenals award. You are a buisness and if you cant afford it then hard luck.
Public funding would overhaul the entire area and make money back over time. It's an investment like Spooky said. It's not fair but look around, developments are all politics and scratching each others back. Why do you think Arsenal got £70M for their troubles?
Look at the way manure redeveloped ot. They added to the rear and above a totaly seperate structure.
Would you like us to borrow £300 to £400 million ? cause if you do,say goodbye to our top players. Who knows what state football will be in ,in a few years.Could we take that chance?
The way this is headed I think we'll get the money. I don't believe that Levy has Stratford as his number one choice. He has to be careful with this next statement on this because. Read between the lines when it appears online.
You would need hundreds of millions to improve your local area as its vile (as is upton park for sure). You should not get money whilst all these cuts are going on its plain wrong. You can improve the area by getting in imigration control in the area and booting out thousands of illegals from the local community which are making tottenham and haringay a cesspit
Then maybe if the council can't afford it right now, they can commit to paying towards it later on down the line once it is done. Haringey will have nothing if the club moves. However on the other foot, Spurs would be considerably better off financially by moving to the OS. Like someone mentioned previously, due to its location and transport links it will be ideal for host other events which the club will rake it in for and I'm sure AEG or whoever wants in will pitch in some of the costs for the development too. If we don't want the current OS we could knock it down and build our design and still be better off than redeveloping WHL.
I want to stay in NL but financially the OS makes sense in both the present and future. It would give our club a great platform to build on. We really will be missing a trick if we don't move and Levy knows this which is why he is keeping his card close to his chest. I would put everything I have on the fact that we won't be given any financial help from anyone with regard to redeveloping WHL. But with the OS we wouldn't need them to but AEG will help us out on that front.
I was born just off the Seven Sisters Road 65 years ago and have supported TOTTENHAM Hotspur all my life because they are my LOCAL team. I have had the priveledge of watching our greatest ever team and knowing a lot of the old greats I also had the great honour of being one of the bearers at the funeral of my old friend and all time idol the mighty Bobby Smith God rest his soul. My point is if we move to Stratford they will no longer be my local team and all our history and traditions will be lost. We will also lose the right (imo) to call ourselves Hotspur as we were named after Sir Harry Hotspur The Duke of Northmberland who owned most of the land and property around the area hence Northumberland Park etc. Please let us stay where we belong and start work on the new stadium ASAP. Nice to see the team all in white last night another tradition from the great european nights of the sixties. COYS
Buy a sleeping giant, get them into the CL and secure planning permission for a new stadium. Sell on for a profit. Levy's got 5 years to find a buyer.
History won't be lost, it in our (the fan's) memory and we will still sing we are Tottenham from the lane as it will still ring true. Traditions of the club will still be upheld, we won't forget them by moving 5 miles away, the only ones that will change are the fans traditions on match days, which change through time anyway. We will still be Tottenham Hotspurs, we will still have our history and traditions, we will just play 5 miles away.
Sheffspurs you wont get the OS end of.
Here's a suggestion - why don't we just move into Wembley? It's in north London, decent transport, 80000 seats, is only used a few times a year and would get the FA out of a hole - so we could screw them for a good deal. Apart from the red seats (easily changed) and the crappy pitch (also should be easy to sort), sounds like the perfect solution?!
Yes, the journey to Stratford will be carnage as well as to WHL. Do not forget that the new Westfield shopping centre is opening there too. Let's all enjoy that Saturday travel chaos involving Spurs fans, shoppers plus away fans - imagine Spurs vs Chelsea @ Stratford? N17 please. Why does everyone forget the running track issue? The track must be kept. Those stadiums with tracks suck. It appeals to the Hammers because they can progress cheaply and will accept the drawbacks. Stratford is 3 or 4 drawbacks too many for us...
current estimate of 450 mill for the northumberland..and a saving of approx 200 mill for stratford............................an extra 50 mill due to english heritage pressure (no investment from them?)...........no public sector infrastructure investment regeneration for Harringey monies for transport issues etc?.....the clubs home is N17......but ill be a spurs fan whatever the board decide.......levy is right to consider all options to make our club one of the finest in what is now a global concern....our local team is international...a stadium state of the art with the best design possible post emaroids and wembley etc......the club is going in the right direction...........Q,why is it fantastic say harringey that spurs invest but the view not supported with any investment themselves into the external areas of harringey to resolve obvious impact issues in line with previous finance and example and support for the emirates etc........where's . the regeneration money ?...any protest should be aimed at harringey whos mismanagement have kept the place looking and feeling deprived........for some considerable.. time........................ the idea of a new home for all of us may be a jewel hard to resist.......
Hammertime - no one here gives a fuck what you think.
"end of"
What a moronic thing to say, especially when nothing ha been set in stone regarding the OS.
As stated earlier you cannot get the OS as it will be opposed on all levels most of all from Newham Council. So Sheffspur go back to shitfield and make some knives and forks and leave the football to the south to sort out
N17, it has to be now surely! C'mon Levy the customer is always right.
BS9
Couldn't agree more. People can fool themselves all they like into believing that moving the club to Stratford won't forfeit the right to call themselves a Tottenham fan or the club Tottenham Hotspur, but the very act of moving outside of the district, be it 5 miles or 500 miles, makes it impossible.
Tottenham or nothing.