A nail in the coffin of Stratford?
Thursday, November 25, 2010 at 2:54PM Wasn't expecting the Boris decision today. Happy days he's approved it. The below article was written pre-decision (with the last paragraph or so amended post-decision), but as there is still some way to go (at least until Levy makes a statement on the official site) I'll continue to entertain the Stratford debate for arguments sake. Because going on the last statement made by the club, it's still a feasible option for the board.
All of the below (a mix of random musings and thoughts on the last statement) is still more or less relevant in that the final decision on our move will remain with the club.
It's now down to us.
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Back onto the Stratford debate.
For anyone who wants the club to place heritage and history above and beyond the urgency to build it (and they will come) somewhere outside N17 then click here. Financial stability and growth is imperative, no doubt, but it's not quite gun to the head trigger to be pulled make a decision now or else. Is it?
Or is it?
If Northumberland doesn't get the green light (from all approvers) or Levy decides against it - is Stratford the only viable option? Unless there are underlying agendas as to why ENIC would want to get the ball rolling quick sharp. Not pulling a Lammy here and suggesting anything sinister. Just that their roadmap might have the here and now as prudent to moving forwards with an approved plan rather than left scratching our heads for potentially many more years.
I know - in comparison to others - we are 5/6 years behind and some. But it's not like we've been financially crippled in recent years and arguably we have competed in the transfer market with clubs who have double/triple our gate receipt revenue. Yes, we have 30,000+ waiting for season tickets. Our fan base is a strong one. Our development on the pitch is hardly being effected. But I do get it, get the stadium sorted now and in 5 or so years we'll be raking it in and you can't dispute the extra monies won't help us maximise the club further. Won’t count for much if it isn't working on the pitch. And I'd hate to think we are going to place all our eggs in the one basket with what goes on off it.
The football landscape is changing and emotional attachments are sold on for future investment. It's hard to accept which is why we are divided. Some wont let go, others want to conquer new territory with just a nod to the past. Them lot down the road left their original swamp and moved into another, remaining within North London. There are hardly any alternative options for us within N17 other than Northumberland/WHL.
Yes, I want us to get stronger and yes if the only way to dodge the bullet is to opt for East London then our hands our tied, but I can't help but believe we are more Jack Bauer than we are Jack on top of the hill, tumbling down.
Hopefully Stratford is taken out of the equation. Ask yourself, if Stratford was not in the equation - what would we do? Settle for nothing? Of course not. And there's your answer. Jack Bauer - never say die and do everything in your power to preserve. Let only the weak fall down and break their crown.
Again, some of us are back arguing whether Levy is using his Machiavellian tactics booklet to instigate some positive action from the local authorities or he's considering the brand of THFC has out grown the siren-ridden badlands of Tottenham. You can take a name out of Tottenham but you can never take Tottenham out of the name. Or something. A move away is just a new chapter in our history, what came before it will not be forgotten. There are countless philosophical for and against arguments to be had.
Last week Levy released an open letter/statement on the OS. Strategically (for the conspiracy freaks) not that long after Lammay's comments about Levy being serious about moving Spurs to Stratford were shared on Twitter. Again, if this is a tag-team to heighten awareness of why the Northumberland project is stagnating in theory then bravo. If it's not then at this very late late stage, it's either ballsy hard ball from Levy or desperation to save the N17 vision by gaining public sector assistance. You could say the gun is pointing at their head, trigger pull at the ready as much as it's pointing at ours. To dare is to do, right?
One issue is funding from the public sector where money is probably going to be prioritised for a dozen other projects to aid with unemployment and housing etc. I guess in terms of long term investment it's probably worth looking at the work we are trying to do for the community.
I don’t quite grasp how it all works politically but in the initial survey Spurs conducted surely they would have understood the potential for additional costs and problems with funding outside of the clubs power to invest?
As a side note - according to one or two people who work in civil engineering - they say all this listed buildings drama is much ado about nothing and that in several years they will probably be knocked down. Which is an expensive irony. My argument has always been - why have these listed buildings been left alone and allowed to degrade for so long but now suddenly it's vital they are retained and have to be pencilled into a re-design? Don't answer that question, it's obvious why.
As for the Olympic Stadium being our original choice, did this not get rejected out of hand because fans did not want to move from our current home? Anyone care to share?
And re: Stratford and travel, to be honest I can see it being carnage, thousands upon thousands of people using the one station (yes I know it has plenty of routes in and out and platforms and overground trains etc). Try using it on any working night from Monday to Friday. Carnage. I guess much like Seven Sisters is carnage, but at least fans disperse thanks to the walk/bus journey down the high road to the station and others opting for the over-ground to Liverpool Street. Also, three soul-destroying words for ya: The Central Line. Welcome to a world of signal failures.
Re: Stratford (and travel again) - The Olympic games will probably be a decent enough test for the transport there. I'm sure what with the money spent it will cope admirably. And if I wanted the easy option I would actually opt for the move because I could travel in from Essex within 30 minutes or so with a guaranteed seat every time. But my travel arrangements for match-day are hardly pressing.
Like I keep saying, you travel to see your team no matter what.
These are not serious discussion points by the way, I'm just pointing out you can make anything look big or small look bad or good thanks to personal opinion. And yes, Tottenham is not a great place to look at and there's plenty to moan about but its got its charm and character not because of what it is from one day to the next but because of what it is on match-days. And I guess my point here can be hijacked (I did say it myself to be fair in the last Stratford article - linked at the end of this article) that it’s the fans that make the experience worthwhile. But it's glued together by the identity of the club and where it stands at the moment in N17. To say Stratford is five miles away, then we may as well move to any place in London because 'you can still get to it quickly by tube'. Any choice locations South of the river?
One thing to note, we've acquired most of the land for the Northumberland project. I know it can be easily sold on (you would hope, surely, shopping centre where once Mackay and Blanchflower graced the ball around), but again, unless I'm ignoring the business sense Levy has used in also bidding for Stratford, I just think we are far too involved to give up on N17.
And moving further North of Tottenham is pretty much on par with moving to Stratford, in terms of moving. The whole point is to stay in N17 and not move out of Tottenham. Gun to head permitting. If we can't build on the current site.
Yes it would be cheaper/easier to move to Stratford. I get it. I appreciate the travel infrastructure is there, ready and willing. Yes we would appeal to tourists and day-trippers. But since when has any of this really mattered? Or is making as much money possible going to be the reason we evolve as a club?
You support Spurs. You will travel to see them. You won't bemoan a walk to and from the station.
"Any new stadium option must necessarily be one which is feasible in both land acquisition and financing terms" - Levy.
So was the Northumberland Project ever feasible?
Of course it was/is. Compare it to Stratford and it isn't. First choice or second?
I'd be interested to see the club possible survey all the current season ticket holders and everyone on the waiting list - to gauge opinion. Yes or no. Just the one question. For demographic purposes.
One more thing - I'm not planning on throwing water balloons of urine over the West Stand entrance here. I think these types of discussions have a value because of the arguments for and against shared by supporters of the club. I actually think nobody is completely wrong and nobody is completely right. What I do believe is - if you want something bad enough then you fight for it. Underhanded in the shadows or out in the open throwing punches.
I want us to stay in N17.
Boris has today approved the plans. No surprise. It was never in doubt. It's now up to us to push ahead with them. Still a question with the public money we want. It's still one step closer.
In Levy we trust. We have to. He's the one responsible for representing us.
N17: Home is where the heart is
Reader Comments (108)
the main problem for the post olympic use of the stadium is ..whatever is decided......it cant become a white elephant.....so comparing spurs/AEGbid to west ham is obviously in spurs favour for which is why AEG are onboard....big fish little fish....etc... hope Harringey seize the opportunity and work with Enic and thfc to sort out the rebuild at white hart lane........get it right ........period.......THFC business is important to the borough....so re design the whole transport sytem for matchdays ..do the maths etc.....ask the right questions you may get the right answers
If we did move east then Stratford Wanderers Franchise Club would have one less fan and the newly formed AFC Spurs would have one more fan.
As commented there are a number of issues around English Heritage, re-design, funding and transport. And tbh all of thm valid (especially Heritage sticking his oar in.
But taking a step back, what I wonder is, how did man city feel when they inherited their stadium. Larger capacity, minimal cost for re-development and better infrastructure and transprt links in place.
Are they still concerned with history (granted they don't have quite so much to shout about)? But their fans have tended to be local die hard fans (you'd have to have been to support them pre-arabs after all) and I doubt they were happy when it was first proposed. But I wonder how they feel about it now?
I know there is a lot of positioning going on, but is our reaction to what could be actually worse than our ability to deal and adapt with the reality when it happens?
I would presonally dislike us to move to stratford, but if it happened, I'd deal with it, because I'd follow spurs anywhere.
Then again the club already know how much we are willing to suffer to follow our team, after all they have our money and our commitments year after year.
Maybe that's what Levy is banking on, that we are more willing to suffer than we let on.
btw, congrats to Bale on his shortlisting for the FIFA World XI .
I thought the Enic group are cash rich, worth over 3 billion.The owner Joe Lewis lost nearly 2 billion on the stock exchange, before the recovery of the stock market, so why would they get a loan for this and incur massive debts, when all he has to do is loan the money to the club, and we can pay it back within a time period, without putting unforseen pressure on the club. Also as said before by some spurs fans, we should put pressure on the authorities, to expand the victoria line to Northumberland park, as it already has a service track that can be converted easily, and will surely help regenerate the area and overcome match day travel chaos. I live near Potters Bar, and could easily get to the game if this happened, as well as fans coming from other areas where they can get connecting trains to the victoria line , and the overground to WHL AND NP, would be more than adequate to cope with the expansion. Remember Finsbury park a few years ago, it was a shit hole, and Tottenham was a leafy suburb, now the roles are reversed and need to bring the area back to how it was,, this is why spurs need to kick start the regeneration process.
Tricky, it's a bad example as Manchester City still play in Manchester.
Why do people keep saying the gypos received public sector funding? they didnt recieve anything, Levy's telling porkys me thinks.
I'd love to remain in N17, but not if it bankrupts us!!!!!
Did anyone see that fcuk wit David lammy on Sky earlier? not once did he say he'd try and help with public sector funding, he shouldve been lobbying for years on our behalf, not coming out saying Spurs MUST remain in N17 because its where we belong-we all fcuking know that! show Levy the money, just make it a condition that he cant sell his shares for the next 15 years if we get any public sector funding.
In my opinion, moving to Stratford is going to be a big mistake. Where on earth are you going to get the unique atmosphere of WHL. We will have executive boxes galore and lose 10,000-15,000 real supporters.
The issue is Government financial support . Wembley and Arse received big bucks from Government funds, we have not!! On top of this we had the issue of the heritage buildings to preserve, on top of this we have a £3 million demand from Harringay to improve road signing in the area and so on and so on. On top of this is the additional costs of building, £ 50 million!!!.
Levy is serious about Stratford, its no joke, he is not playing!!
Sign the bloody petition " No to Stratford Hotspurs" and lets get moving. There are 2,500 so far. Lets get it up to 25,000!!
Whats going to happen to the North London Derby: For gods sake, just imagine, empty stands, no atmoshpere, European nights - cant see it at Startford im afraid.
But, its Levy and its down to money. Raise your voice and oppose the move
Tottenham staff last week took up the clubs offer of tours round the Olympic site.. Up until today that worried me. Hopefully now we won't be going anywhere!
Finsbury Park still is a shit area!!!
I can assure you, there is no public money anbd no extension to the Victoria Line.
@ Wisky Tom
Your post in the previous thread about St Boris's Day is the funniest thing I have read all year. I am tempted to celebrate in the same way by taking a dump on the steps at the Emirates myself. Can you imagine if we all did it? LOL.
Hammertime, we would be regenerating the entire area, something the council and the Government are incapable of doing now and for the next 15 years, so why should we not receive some financial support for this project!!
Who else is going to lift the area???
Hotspurs , what do you mean there is no public money?
No Government funds to support the regeneration of the area.
But can we still be granted money for the stadium which would go towards regeneration?
I beleive so. What has happened is that Harringay is using the development and Spurs money to regenerate the area and i can understand this, but they are now taking the piss by pilling in more demands which has increased costs significantly and all that Harringay council members can say is Spurs belong to N17 and must not move!!
To be honest, I'd be angry as well, i cant blame Levy
tmwnn, tbf, it is about a similar distance that manchester moved (just over 4 miles) stratford is under 5 miles away and is still in london. so the comparative is valid.
I also worked in Southampton with fans when they moved from the dell, and we all know what impact not being run on a financial sound basis had on them.
Still don't wanna move though.
One big negative is not having anything to sell to part found the WHL stadium, unless of course we move to Stratford when they will sell WHL. I wonder if Harringay will retain part of the stadium as a Grade 2 listed building?? I bet they will not care for this when delelopers move in and Harringay see the color of the money!!
Sad..............
None of us want to move from WHL but 460 million of debt is serious, potentially club busting debt.
And don't forget, the original quote was 400 million so it has increased by 60 million in a year without a brick being laid.
If we start work in a couple of years time I suspect the cost will be well over 500 million.
This is a massive decision which will shape the clubs future for decades to come.
Levy knows the figures, he knows how high the stakes are and given where he has taken the club over the past few years, I would rely on his judgement over anybody elses.
That does not mean I ignore the disgusting way he treated MJ, but I believe that is his only mistake.
Like someone else said, strip back the design. As fans we want a decent view, stands as steep and tight to the pitch as poss, plenty of toilets and food/drink that you don't have to queue for. I thought the fit out of Wembley's concourse was shocking - so much money spent on nice ceilings etc. WTF! Anyone who went to Braga knows a stadium can be basic and beautiful.
LemonadeMoney. Know any good architects?
I dont want to the club to move; i support TOTTENHAM! it just wont be tottenham anymore; the atmosphere will be lost and we will be surrendering the North to the scum. That will be a bitter pill to swallow being north london born and bred.
I do however sympathise with levy; i'm not sure how much funding the arse received for their stadium but i do know that other than the issues to deal with relocations they were far more helpful and supportive than haringay are being. they are trying to take the piss out of spurs! they are trying to squeeze every penny out of the club even though the club is already pumping millions into the area.
As a construction and planning lawyer i certainly sympathise with levy after being put it this position by idiots like lammy.in my heart of hearts i dont want to move but it maybe necessary
North London is ours, North London is ooooooooooooooooooooours, fuck off back to Woolwich, North London is ours......
King seeks specialist advice:
I'll give him some advice - free too! Stop fcuking drinking - it's a central nervous system depressant and hinders cell rejuvenation, slowing down the body's ability to repair. It also strips the body of fluid (body fluid) which really fcuks you up. !! Drink, i'd say, but don't, and I repeat - don't, drink so much, that you find yourself unable to
> WALK (Without assistance, or pointing)
> SEE (Both eyes minimum)
> PROCESS KEY INFORMATION (Led, they're calling the Police mate)
> URINATE (legally)
> REMEMBER (Who you are, where you live, and moreover, you have bad knees)!!
He does like a drink does Ledley. But then you would too if you're knee bloated to three times its size post-match.
If he has hollow legs you can't blame him for filling them. ;O)
Three times Spook? Really? 'flicks through medical encyclopedia' In that case Spook, It's probably lost remnants of Stella looking for a way out!
I meant four times. The size of Huddlestone in fact. That frigging big.
@ Desktop
Legs I can understand, but chest cavity, arms, neck and head is a bit much.......
I'm a die-hard "Tottenham" fan. Never once have I wavered. Untill that is, someone in last weeks first NRD/Stratford debate wrote "How about London Hotspurs anyone?"...... It hit me in the pit of the stomach. I still haven't recovered my equilibrium !!!!!!
Ledley's knees have outgrown the Lane!! ? Is that it? Is that what this is all about? Say no to Stratford!!
@tonyblue
tHINK YOuRSELF LuCKy to HavE it IN tHE fiRst PlacE.
@ Wisky Tom
Yes, our very own Rolls-Royce of defenders (although now we have a Bentley at the club!), dealt a cruel hand. His injury misfortunes haven't just been his loss, but the club's and England's, too.
I feel Spurs stand at several crossroads, the new Stadium being undoubtedly the most significant and far-reaching. The Stratford approach finds a place in my head, but only Tottenham finds a place in my heart.
SPOT ON.
Whisky... as I said "I still haven't......". Don't get me wrong, Seven Sisters Road.... I love ya !!
Levy is touted by many fans as being a great financial manager. If that's true, why only now are we hearing about the need for public money to finance our new stadium?
I guess it's because the Olympic Stadium has only just appeared as an option that seems financially cheaper than re-developing in N17.
I think Levy's stance now is for the local council and the Government to fund the difference in projected costs or we move....simples.
His chances of getting the money I would guess are extremely low given the non-stop rabbit from Cameron and Clegg about the defecit so it looks as though all Levy's eggs are in the OS basket. Unfortunately, the problem he has there is with the athletics legacy commitments. I can only assume that Levy has secured some high-level government backing for his Stratford bid or else he runs the risk of looking very stupid indeed.
The question to be asking Levy is what will he do if/when the OS bid is rejected and there is no public funding available?
With regards to Haringey, they are taking the piss. They want us to pay for the regeneration via the new stadium. Taking the piss tbh.
tbh, this to me looks like positioning by levy, by the ODA legacy commitee.
When we do move to the olympic stadium (as I am starting to see as tragically almost inevitable the more I read the background) Levy will argue:
'What could I do? English heritage put the pice up by £60 mil, the government weren't willing to fund the stadium to improve the area, so what did you want risk bankrupting us with £460 million debt over a lengthy period of time and having to sell the likes of bale and modric in order to fund the new stadium, or move to stratford for a fraction of the price, where the team will continue to be a success and our revenues will increase and we will be able to compete on a world scale.'
And the ODA will basically say 'as West Ham were relegated we wanted to see the OS hosting Spurs vs Milan, not West Hamvs Milwall'.
tbf, I've spoken to a few city fans since I asked the question as to how they felt, and it was pretty much the same as what we are seeing here, resistance at first, but resignation as it being the logical thing to do if you want to continue to compete at the top table.
Head ultimatelty ruling heart, as head pays the bills (unles you e-bay your heart that is).
Same goes for the Saints fans I used to work with, the only caveat there is that they did suffer as a result of the cost of the new stadium.
Sorry chaps, I fear we may be exchanging one set of bi-polar neighbours for an equally cerebrally challenged and less accommodating set.
Has King ever had microfracture surgery?
If it's a cocktail you can order at 'faces', chances are, yes.
Levy is now chasing funding because the original estimate of 400 million is now 460 million and will go even higher.
Tricky, I think the main differences between us and City and Southampton is that even though they moved, they retained their name because their names incorporate the city in which they play.
So if we were London Hotspurs, moving to Stratford would not be such an emotive issue.
If we do move to Stratford, I guess we will have to do what the Woolwich Arsenal did and drop the Tottenham part of our name. Somehow "The Hotspurs" does not have any sort of ring to it, and I would hope that we don't adopt the American sports franchise model of just changing the name of the city eg: Brooklyn Dodgers become LA Dodgers or the LA Rams become the St.Louis Rams.......the Stratford Hotspurs would just about finish it off for most fans!
Maybe we should have a naming competition to see if anyone has an acceptable name for the club in the event that we do move. A few examples could be :
The Levy Lolly Grabbers
The Stratford Stingers
The Gypsy Hotspurs
How about it Spooky?
Will the next generation of Spurs fans, the ones being born at the minute and in the next five years - by the time they hit their early twenties, they'll associate Spurs only with Stratford - and nothing else. And people born in East London will grow up Spurs fans and not Orient or West Ham, possibly.
The identity of the club will change over time. Doesn't matter how you attempt to appease the move in terms of the present.
I'm guessing, and obv, this is pure speculation, that we will continue to be 'tottenham hotspur' as that is our roots, but tragically the name is now more important to the club as a 'brand' rather than any geographical contrext.
Now for the record, I don't like it personally, but the issue of 'brand promotion' has been going on for years. Which means spooks that the big clubs are all pushing for their share of fan base in every part of the world, even east london. Us moving there would only compound the issue obv. and it goes against every instinct in my body.
But this isn't some new tack, preseason tours, publicity events throughout london, not just in the haringey region, the promotion of brand values to engender some false image of loyalty has been going on for years.
When you travel around a bit, you only have to see kids in central america, australia, africa, asia to understand how the EPL clubs view the next generation as 'revenue streams' on a global scale.
Why do you think we've linked up with an american and chinese 'sister clubs' to swap idea and players? Sorry, but I'm too cynical not to see THFC taking opportunities to build up an international fan base. because lets face it, every other 'top club' is.
The identity has been changing for years, and that programme of change is already well under way, money took altruistic ideologies and notions of sportsmanship and heros and smashed it into tiny little pieces, which they consequently sell back to us in small doses every time we play.
I still love my THFC, but I see the change as already here, not something to worry about in the future.
I wish that it were different, but it's not. :(
Yeah, I guess football as a whole has been changing and there's a good argument about standing still (avoiding so).
I guess if it happens - if we move out of N17 - the new stadium plans in Stratford will have to be majestic to ease off the pain.
i.e. Massive 'Tottenham' signs/branding all over it.
Tricky,
It's true about modern football being all about marketing to a wider audience/bunch of mugs and most people realise that. The one thing that keeps a lot of fans from turning away from the game is that come match day in Tottenham, all the 'football is just business' talk is forgotten and we can just get on with supporting our club.
Move to Stratford and every game, for those who go, will just be a massive reminder that the game and the team they grew up with and loved has been hijacked by a bunch of cash hungry whores.
Tottenham being in Tottenham is the one and only common denominator for fans to cling on to in a game that is rapidly losing its soul and charm by being replaced by 'brands' and 'naming rights' etc.
Take that away and there really isn't any more point.
@ TMWNN
We as a club have underachieved for years - feeding the likes of MANCHESTER UNITED WORLD DOMINATION CLUB with good footballing prospects. - Klinsmann (smiles) came out, as did Teddy (frowns) and said 'I vont assurances from ze club zat vee are going to invest ins zee club! Or vords to that affect..... The club didn't/couldn't and so they both slipped away in the night.
Being hijacked by a bunch of cash hungry whores is the only way a club can constantly compete/grow. When money isn't flowing clubs STAGNATE - and end up plodding through the motions. I for one am HapPy with ENIC International and Dearest Levy's handling of my club. However if we had Indian chicken farmers sat in the directors box having their hair braided at half time I'd be a tad nervous - in fact - fcuk it - I'd go to straight to DEFCON 1 -
Football is and always will be a business - I remember going to the Lane and being able to walk -at half time- from behind one goal to the other. I remember nearly dying - twice - on the shelf, dent double gasping for breath over those fcuking metal tubed railings, while coppers beat the fcuk out fellow Yids behind me! Sometimes when I'm at the Lane now days I honestly wonder how we all survived? The Lane of today(which we all love) has been developed by those cash hungry whores -
Think about it. What Did The Romans Do For Us?
Dent, Latin for bent....
@ Whisky Tom
Thanks for the reminiscence (I remember those days too), but I'm not entirely sure it has anything to do with this argument; I'm not asking for us to go back to those days (although I'd like to) and it's not as though there is no room for progress in Tottenham.
If financing the stadium is the main problem, build a bigger, cheaper 'bare bones' stadium which has the potential to be built up season by season when more money becomes available.
Hopefully our bid will be turned down and this silliness put to bed, allowing everyone to move forward as one in Tottenham rather than a half hearted, divisive move east.
Like Spook wrote....'we live in real time' not the past! I'd hate to be standing, laying, squashed - fighting for my life on the Shelf today - seriously - what a fcuking mare that would be? I haven't been repeatedly hit by a truncheon in years - but I remember getting well miffed when the powers that be mooted change (all seater) - I thought it was an assault on my human rights! I, and many other hated it...... but look at us now! Fcuk, no way would I go back. I also remember descent when the first executive boxes went in - again - 'What the fcuk are they doing to my club'
My point is - we change perspective, within new environments, we move forward with fond memories - Look at the smoking ban - fcuk - was I ever against that, but hey...... how does it feel to sit and have a curry now without taking a mouth full of spent smoke with each fork full of rice?
City drew - Excellent