Now that the dust has settled...
Wednesday, March 16, 2011 at 12:10PM In the aftermath of the clusterf**k that was the Olympic Stadium bid, how do you feel now? Glad it's over? Regretful that we didn't 'win'? Patiently waiting for our clubs response regarding what we do next thanks to the clear message that the Northumberland Development Project is still non-viable?
If there was any time for In the Know to make itself known, its probably now. Not just in terms of how Levy plans to progress our ambitions with a bigger bolder stadium. Although we might not find out or care for the reasons that led to us being interested in Stratford, being invited to show an interest and then going fully fledged head first into bidding for it only to lose the vote emphatically. Even if on paper our bid was the stronger of the two.
Was Stratford ever really viable itself? Do you feel foolish for throwing your heart at it? Or do you see the positives of leaving behind history and creating a new chapter on new territory?
I guess somebody was required, a fall guy, to highlight what it would mean to the OS if the legacy (running track) was removed. We served our purpose. Landslide. Hence the reason why you can look back and scratch your head at how obvious a choice we were for some, but not for the ones that mattered (the ones making the decision).
This has been done to death I know. I don't want to cover old ground. Just want to gauge your gut reaction now that the dust has settled. Whether you were pro-N17 or pro-moving out of N17. Because statements were made that were evidently clear that leaving N17 was a necessity to survive and evolve.
Would the same statements be made if we now looked to move further away from N17? Would people that are pro-N17 validate such a move if we moved towards the deeper north rather than the east of London? If NDP remains non-viable, will there be a further demonstration of disapproval if we had to move out of Tottenham completely or would it be acceptable if hands remained tied politically with the local council? And if so, was Stratford really such a bad idea in logistical terms?
Personally, yes it was. But that's my opinion. My main issue was always with the way all eggs appeared to be placed into one basket, with the previous basket thrown out with the garbage. I guess Levy and the club saw an opportunity and went for it. As an investment, it was the best fiscal move the club could make. Who are we but just fans who need not fully understand the art of business and political negotiations. We get told one thing that might well be spoken out loud to disguise the truth. Which is fine. I'd like to believe Levy was not as giddy and blind to failure as it appeared on tv and in the press in the lead up to the OS bid decision. That he was simply playing the game, a gamble - had it paid off he'd have made ENIC proud. As it hasn't, it allows him to shift back to Plan B which is now Plan A again - whatever that might be.
One thing I know for sure is, our future did not rest on having to move to East London. If the Olympics were in Paris, what would we be doing right about now? Not wondering about Stratford, I'd hazard a guess.
We're not naive to think business is played out any differently in any other industry. On the surface its one thing, behind the scenes the agendas altogether something else. Which is why the bane of frustrations weighs us down so much. We want answers we wont be given because we can't have them. The club does have to protect itself outside of the bubble we exist in, I understand that.
Now that we're back to square one, and a slice of transparency will go a long way. Although I'm happy to wait until after the season ends before the next bout of in-fighting kicks off.
Reader Comments (36)
I hope you're right. Something tells me the dust has yet to settle.
It looks like some in fighting is already underway again.
Price rises ahoy.
Price rises? What have I missed?
Season ticket prices?
the NDP was never no longer viable. That was just Levy speak to get many pro-N17 or on the fence fans on his side. Sure, there are stumbling blocks but those blocks aren't big enough to mean the entire process will be thrown out of the window. If they are then someone needs to ask why the club spent such a large amount of money leading up to finding those things out.
Levy and ENIC aren't stupid enough to waste that money.
The NDP will happen in due course and once Levy gets what he wants. He'll probably have to compromise on certain things but so be it. As for the constant transport links issue it's all a crock of shit. For anyone that attends away games they'll know getting away from any ground straight after a game is a pain in the arse. If 60k fans did it before WHL became all seater, we can do it now.
If you look back at the original presentation of the NDP you'll see that its very positive in terms of local transport infrastructure. Sshh, don't tell anyone.
Hahaha
I hoodwinked everyone.
My promise in the Evening Standard of January 2010 to remove the running track will be kept.
What we can say is that the THFC board were royally shafted by the whole process: invited to bid, no mention of the running track remaining in the bid document, then losing out to a bid funded by tax payers money that no-one really thinks is going to be good for anyone because the original stadium will stay.
Where it leaves us is still years and years away from the larger stadium we need and deserve.
I read the story about the Meridian Water site (just off the North Circular this location would be near perfect) being a possible location but then other stories that this had been discounted due to local flooding and drainage issues.
One thing did strike me when looking at the Meridian Water sight on Google Maps: when you see a Tesco, IKEA or any other large retail park what is always linked to the building? A huge car park. Yet we can virtually guarantee that there's zero hope of any normal fan getting a parking space near any new Stadium we might or might not get in the distant future.
Oh - and I agree with SpursSimon.
Levy and ENIC are in business. At various (most) points that benefits us, the fans, but at some point I wouldn't be surprised if the THFC board do the Supply and Demand thing:
25k season tickets + 30k waiting list = higher potential price per season ticket
*I'm 40,237 in line for a season ticket and I've had my membership for a while now.
Let's just move the San Siro brick by brick to N17 - by rights we should own it by now?
Yes siree
Our rootin tooting plan to make the new stadium the KFC Bargain Bucket can still happen! Just alter chirpy a little, and the big boy on the west stand! Under armour can change the badge, put some of our famous branding on the shirt ( just a little change to the current red, y'all understand ) and Mary is your mother/sister meal combo!
Yip yip yaroo!
Solutions.
Take the 'governing' body to the European Court and do away with the all seating requirement.
Do away with ALL the seats, (apart from wheelchairs of course) and straight away we're back to how we were in the 50' and 60's, 65,000 at every game.
Of course, to keep the nostalgia going, we also need to do away with all the toilets in the ground and just have two small stone built rooms, 1 East stand 1 West stand, with troughs in for 100 blokes to pee at the same time. (Sorry again ladies, standing room only)
Simples!
Now that the local MP has finally got off his backside and is seeking fnancial help for Spurs, maybe we'll be able to have a new stadium in N17 or the Borough.
450m sounds too high for the NLD but I'm sure after Lammy (belatedly) persuades the Govt to invest (note: invest, not chuck it away a la Newham), Harringay Counsel persuade English Heritage too scrap their potty insistance on retaining some ramshackle old slums on the High Road and TFL start negotiating sensibly then the cost to ENIC will fall to 350-375m or thereabouts. Still big money but if Levy can get a 50m deal for a kit manufacturer then what can he get for naming rights on the stadium itself? I reckon 200m. What with the new supermarket and the redevelopment of the other property Spurs own, the NLD is definately viable.
Another couple of seasons in the Champs League would help as well...
And yes I recall reading the fancy NLD brochure a couple of years ago which pointed out that transport was no prob (although let's be honest it's a comlpete pain with 36k let alone 55k! nice walk from 7 Sisters/Tottenham Hale..)
I am not necessarily pro-N17. I was just ANTI-East London. Moving to Stratford would have been potentially good in the short term, but not good long-term. What makes a club big? The support. Having a strong local support is vital. Look at Leyton Orient - they were established in 1881! A year before us! And also a before West Ham were established. So why are they so tiny? Yet have large neighbours either side? West Ham have no big club to the East, and therefore get support and custom from all East London - and beyond. Spurs have no club to the North, and gets support from north London and beyond - with Arsenal violating! Spurs need to secure that Spurs-supporting heartland of North London and Herts by being there. That is the future. It does not need to be in N17. But it would be nice, so that nothing much changes apart from the revenue. People go on about transport links - but they are actually good - APART from access by emergency services - which I think is the crux of the problem. As for fan transport, we have 4 train stations closer than the nearest one to the City of Manchester stadium! 2 of them a short walk away. Ironically trains from Stratford go to Tottenham anyway. So for me, NORTH LONDON is a must, but we have a trade off between fan access and emergency service access via the roads. I cannot see us getting both.
I am pro N17, anti NPD. The NPD was never viable, from the moment we found out the cost, and that there was no Victoria Line extension included in that cost. Its fantasy land figures - the sums just dont add up. Even if we fill it every week - which we wont give that it will be impossible to get to (and forget the increase hospitality - prawn sandwich munchers are not going to sit on busses en route to their incredibly expensive boxes).
For my money, rebuild the east stand with a taller, 3 tier affair. Plans for this have been drawn up in the past. Essentially the top 2 tiers are built over the road. Down side of this of course is that there are no 'guts' to the top 2 tiers, and hence no potential to extend corporate hospitality significantly. However, the cost is peanuts (£20mish) and capacity would be increased by another 6k or so. 42k is in line with Chelsea and above our historic average, and we get to stay AT HOME, in an atmospheric, historic stadium. Will it make us one of the Europe's top cubs? Probably not, but were we ever in truth? At least we will still be Spurs, and more than capable of competing. If things really take off, stick another tier on the West stand - there is a carpark behind it which can be built on. Again, not new - Sugar looked at doing this the season we signed Klinsmann for the first time. That should take us to 47k or so. Of course at that point we'll probably reach saturation point - given the lack of transport
we will be one of Europes top clubs with a new stadium no question about it. we already make it in to the top 15 rich list every year without CL football..this season we will be in the top 10, prob around 7th. I'm all for heading further North.
I don't get this Victoria line extension business. Extend from where? Tottenham Hale? How about walking from there or Seven sisters! Or get train from Liverpool street to WHL or Northumberland Park. Or try to change at Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale on to the mainline rail.... My cousin is from up north and he said it was really easy to get to WHL when he came down - straight from the north. What lack of transport?
Extension means they stagnate the traffic. Some walk some won't. Although I'd guess most would aim to get the connecting train and thus cause masses of problems.
Well Spooky, if you go to a football ground, you are going to expect some walking. I grew up in the area, so obviously I know the best routes. But this was my point about Stratford - most people would not be lucky enough to have a direct train to Stratford, so you will get an enormous rush of people saturating the changing stations... Either way, transport or no transport, an increase of supporters will be a headache. I heard that despite Arsenal having so many stations around, it still takes ages to get outta there. I live 3-4 miles from Spurs now, but I am home in 45 mins or so - walk and car.
TonyRich -
The point of the Victoria Line extension is that the Tube is designed to shift a lot more trains per hour than overland trains.
Personally I park in Enfield and get the train down and then avoid all the problems on the south-bound trains on the way out of WHL...
Well I can see that, but Manchester did not extend the train line to go from Manchester Piccadilly to the City of Manchester stadium, yet their walk is longer, and their stadium is larger than our proposed one. That is my point.
The point is - all this talk about train transport is over exaggerated. Suddenly people cared about the time it took to get to the Lane and that getting into East London would be far quicker. And now I guess it no longer matters once more.
TonyRich - there is already a Victoria Line 'extension' which goes to Northumberland Pk. It is currently the main depot for Vic Line trains. Essentially, all trains that currently 'terminate' at Seven Sisters then carry on up this extension. Its right next door to Northumberland Park rail station - literally a 5 min walk from the ground. LT wont upgrade it to a passenger station as it involves significant changes to the signalling. Whatever your arguments, and those of people saying it still takes ages to get away from Arsenal (which is true), the situation would be dramatically improved with a regular tube service to WHL. This is surely beyond dispute.
What rankles with Spurs fans - and I suspect Levy - is that LT were happy to put Londoners through misery, and invest many, many millions of pouinds, in upgrading platforms and signals for the new Wembley, despite it being used so rarely. Dont get me wrong - I am pleased this was done, I think it is necessary - but it would also need to be done if Spurs were to build a new 60k stadium.
Without a decent mass transit system you can forget the development. The trains to WHL are 4 an hour and 8 coaches AT BEST. This cannot be improved, the line doesnt have the capacity. On Sundays the trains often dont run. Its simply not good enough. If we struggle to get 36k people to WHL - again indisputable as demonstrated by the thousands turning up well after the game has kicked off (particularly mid-week) - how will be get 60k there? We simply wont, and I suspect this is one of the reasons Levy has written the whole thing off as unviable. I'm pretty sure he is correct, especially when considering the outrageous cost of the development.
For those who happily drive and park a mile away, good uck with that if the NPD ever gets built. There will be parking restictions for literally miles around - this has already been confirmed. It really is, improve the public transport considerably (not buses, quick, mass transit systems), or forget about a significantly bigger ground in Tottenham. Given the squeeze on public spending, I'd say that means staying put with a small increase capacity, or moving somewhere like Stratford. Harsh but true.
having driven or trained it to the Lane for 25 years I can live with the sub-optimal travel experience and i spose I'll not care too much if it worsens a bit with an increase in capacity. But if we have the opportunity then I think we should move to a less populated area (North) than N17 where people can park easily without worrying about getting a ticket, being charged a tenner, benig broken into or having a long/unlpeasant walk to & from the ground. would make the whole experience easier and more enjoyable. and fans would spend more on food/drink/crap etc
whatever happens i'm sure levy & co are working on it as we speak so im sure we'll hear something positive soon.
Tony Rich, regarding Manchester, the tram line was specifically routed to go to Old Trafford, and is currently being extended to Eastlands. At the public's expense, by the way. In Munich the state paid for a tube line to be extended to their new stadium. Emirates, Riverside, Stadium of Light etc all attracted heafty public subsidy and transport improvements. Now do you see why Levy is feeling a bit unloved? We would be the only club in Europe to ever build a stadium of this size without any public subsidy or transport investment. Its not on, and therefore isnt financially viable.
Spooky - with respect to your comment about transport above, I think you are missing the point. While we can just about get 36k people to WHL most of the time (not all of the time however), the issue is if we could get 50k+ there. The answer is no, we couldnt. I am well aware of the crowds in the old days, but these were incomparable times. The vast majority lived within walking or bus distance of the ground in those days. Today the average journey is apparently 40 miles. And in any case, the finances dont add up unless you can attract significant corporate hospitality. For the projected match day revenue at Straford, this was almost 50% of the receipts. Who in their right mind is going to pay top dollar for corporate hospitality that you cant get to or from easily? Sorry to be Mr Corporate - I'm no fan of it at football, but what can you do? - but without these revenues, large scale stadium developments dont stack up.
As I said, I am pro N17, anti NPD. Smallish, cosy stadium with rickety transport does me fine. But then as a season ticket holder, I dont have to scamble to find tickets every other week, so maybe I'm just selfish
Relax, the NDP will go ahead as originally planned.
Boris got Spurs involved in the OS bidding because we needed to make WHam's bid look good. A football team taking over the OS was never going to be a popular choice, but given the choice between Spurs' trackless stadia and Whams commitment to the legacy, the East Londoners bid suddenly became popular. Now the dust has settled, everyone is delighted little ol' Wet Spam got the OS and the track will stay (despite earlier protests about a football team moving in).
Now Boris owes Levy a favor, I believe a statement along the lines of 'we'll do all we can to assist Tottenham in their future plans' (or words to that effect) was released...I now expect a big shiney stadium in Tottenham in the not so distant future!!
as someone who travels to the lane every other week from bournemouth i can whole heartedly say that i couldnt give a flying dutchman how long the train journey is, to be honest that one of the best parts of the day. few beers, hassle the lovely ladies on the train and have a sing song about our favourite subject.........the lovely ladies on the train ***correction*** tottenham hotspur. surely its the whole day experience people enjoy and not just the 90 minutes of which your sat in the stadium??
and to answer the original question spooky, im chuffed as nuts we arnt moving. was always pro-N17 and i dont think the clubs doing to badly with the stadium were in either, ill be honest i nice new stadium to rival arsenals would be grand but im more interested in how we are catching up with the fuckers on the pitch!
Paul F - well, I am aware of the existing "extension" as I am from the area. I am one of those non-season ticket holders - who cannot get a ticket for months because they are sold out. It needs to be 55000 at least. An extra 20k fans will get there on way or another. If I have to walk 5 more mins than normal, so be it. I haven't taken the train to a match in ages, but years ago I remember extra trains going to WHL on a match day. Is this no longer the case?
dixta - if we move further north, I fear that the problem would be worse, because EVERYONE would have to drive. You could imagine 30,000 cars or so trying to get a parking space? That seems like a nightmare to me. At least at WHL you have the Victoria line, and the services from Liverpool st - so less would drive.
Moving North from Tottenham wouldn't be good - I live in Enfield and transport is rubbish. Its a 15 minute walk to the nearest station, and whereas the nearest tube station is two miles from WHL, its probably twice that to a tube station (Tottenham Hale or Liverpool Street) from where I live on the Hertford Road. One of the proposed areas to build a ground was Enfield Playing Fields, which has loads of space but the nearest station is a mile and a half away and there's next to no parking space. Picketts Lock isn't much better.
NDP is the way to go.
Obviously now that I live abroad it didn't matter to me too much where the club were based, although, having spent many days in the stands when I lived back in Blighty, nostalgia dictates that I would be pro N17.
My true feelings about it all. I'm glad the whole Stratford thing is over. I never saw us getting the OS in the first place and really thought it was a waste of time, effort and money on the clubs part (if they really wanted to win the bid). This was enforced further by our plan to redevelop Crystal Palace when CPFC were also affected by our decision to bid and, therefore, making it even less likely. It all appeared pointless to me, however, I now like to believe that Levy was trying to rally support for public money investment into the NDP, by forcing idiots like David Lammy to contemplate a Tottenham without THFC and I think it worked.
I think the NDP will still go ahead, albeit, scaled down from the 450M original (2nd) plan. Transport will of course be an issue but I really wish those morons at English Heritage would give up on those piles of bricks out front, they're hardly important to the area. Anyone know someone with a wrecking ball?
Initially I was pleased to read the passionate thoughts of my fellow Yids but I got very bored of it very quickly when it quickly became apparent it wasn't going to happen. Even before the award. In the end I gave up reading about it.
Main concern about the NPD has always been the cost of a ST there if the costs of building are correct.
How many people will be happy to pay out 1k for the cheapest ticket? Club level at the Emirates is about to go up to 2625 from 2500. Not sure what type of supporter buys Club Level over there - west stand upper?, but I think 1k would probably be the lowest price we would see.
Supply and Demand - be interesting to see what happens to ST prices next year, with so many on the waiting list and if we have no CL football next season the easiest way to get extra money will be to increase pricing.
If we do draw Inter again in the QFs of the CL, the best course of action would be to up sticks, move with all our posessions to Milan, turf one of the two Milan clubs we've faced four times out of the San Siro, and set up shop as Associazione Calcio Milano Hotspur. I am getting thoroughly bored of that stadium.
LOL, DubaiSpur, but my "the fix is in" money is on Shakhtar or Schalke. That way UEFA guarantees that at least one of the upstart rif-raf clubs is out of the semis, thus securing a place for one of the established name brands. And the odd club out will be facing Barcelona.
For me,
1. Stratford was viable for all reasons except a political reason, on which ground the decision was made.
2. No, I do not feel foolish by backing this idea
3. Baseless bullshit thrown around how Spurs (if moving 5 fucking miles away) will leave behind their history and create a new chapter on new territory is a plain stupid argument.
4. Where ever new place is going to be, I only wish for it to have decent public transportation access, so the increased number of fans can get to and out of this place safe and easy.
As I've mentioned before, Spooky, I also support Barcelona so I don't really want us to play them at all.
Real Madrid on the other hand! I would love it, just love it if we beat those smug, fascist rich boys on our way to the semi finals. I hate everything they stand for.
oops, posted on the wrong thread