Referendum promised
Friday, February 4, 2011 at 11:55AM Currently waiting for 'We are N17' to release their statement after their meeting with Daniel Levy. What we do know is that Mr Chairman has promised the fans (members? season ticket holders? dead people living in Florida?) a referendum meaning that if we 'win' the OS bid he'll ask for our vote prior to releasing the non-refundable £20M bond to seal the deal.
It's a fairly common acknowledgement that most supporters don't care either way (this isn't a dig at those who want to move and are vocal about it - I'm talking about the ones who would accept a move to probably anywhere and don't get involved in the debate). Fact is, there are thousands out there that don't bother with membership but would like tickets and know that Stratford would give them that, and asking why remaining in North London won't, is just fluff getting in the way of their seat.
Who get's to vote and how much weight people place on it's importance will...well, let's see if we get there first.
It's diplomatic PR by Levy. It's what we've asked for so nobody should complain. But everyone knows how the vote will go. Which begs the question why we bothered in the first place. It's nothing more than an olive branch which will perhaps weaken those that are currently pro-N17 and smooth the way to acceptance.
I'd once more point towards the NDP no longer being viable and the reasons behind it, along with the required transparency in relation to 'it's Stratford or we look to move outside of N17' (dearly like to know how much time, effort and cost would go into moving outside of N17 in comparison to remaining there) - but I'll no doubt get shot down by one or two who will tell me that Levy knows what he's doing and I shouldn't fret about the details what with me being a commoner and him being the dark overlord of Death Star investment company ENIC.
Cue Imperial March music.
Onwards, again.
'The questions Daniel Levy still needs to answer'. Read Martin Cloake's new article here.
Reader Comments (60)
You've posed the only question(s) that keeps going through my mind.
How come 12 months ago we had a great plan for staying at WHL but now it's unaffordable?
What's changed in that time? How much and why has the cost supposedly increased? Did the accountants at Spurs majorly f**k up their budgeted costs?
Or is it simply that WHL redevelopment costs are affordable and always were - and its just that Stratford will cost less and ENIC gets a better return in due course?
He has yet to address these issues at all. Until he does I'm extremely sceptical about all the PR/bulls**t.
Stratford (should it happen) will secure the future of the club. My affinity is with WHL but I have long concluded that we have to move from our beloved WHL and the only current viable option is Stratford.
Back the man - and owners - that have backed the Club.
would be tricky as you say to determine who gets a vote. Members? Fans who have attended games in the last 5 years? Or just armchair fans at home who can be just as passionate as any season ticket holder. The problem is what is to stop a load of west ham fans voting for us to stay??
Nice touch from Levy but wont make a difference, if it's awarded he will hardly give up the chance of moving there because of some vote.
Agree Spooky, he know the right majority will win the votes. So the question should be - do the minority then accept what the majority want?
its the first time Levy has given the fans an inch since the NDP was approved through fan consultation. So its a victory of sorts for We Are N17... the decision is next week.
Tobe - that's exactly the point. If the majority say move then do the rest of us wear our black armbands and sombrely move to the east?
I just hope west ham win to save all this bollocks thats distracting evryone from the football. The team needs the fans to be focused like at the start of the season, we seemed invincible then. Every game is massive now and all this bollocks about stratford could fuck everything up
Yes Spooks, I'm affraid we will have to, if the majority gets what the majority wants!
surely it should be up to the majority of season ticket holders, members, people who have bought tickets, fans. yes the exact make up of who gets a vote is obviously going to be an interesting decision. This is a massive decision for the club and a vocal minority whether that is pro stratford or pro N17 should not dictate the future of the club, if we are awarded preferential bidder status, then the vote of the majority of spurs fans should have their voice heard.
@jamshoes
Yeah exactly that keeps going through my mind. I've been trying to think of an analogy to see where Levy os coming from but I cant really.
The closest I came is thinking back to when I bought my house 5 years ago...I was renting at the time. I had a mortgage offer and an offer accepted on a property - was comfortable with the mortgage repayments on that.
2 weeks later I spotted a better house for sale for 35k less...same mortgage company gave me what I then needed and I bought that one.
Better house costing less. The place I was renting was not for sale.
The analogy fails really because I didnt buy loads of "stuff" around the place I was renting first in the hope of buying the place I was renting and developing that.
Fuck it its a crap analogy.....I've got a hangover...
@tobe
"Agree Spooky, he know the right majority will win the votes. So the question should be - do the minority then accept what the majority want?"
That would be democracy.
Who should vote?
Season ticket holders and the 35k on the waiting list. Nobody else.
I does not really matter becasue the question asked will be the critical thing.
Will it be?
Please tick the applicable box below
I want the club to move to the OS site
I want to stay at WHL
I reckon it might well be and there will be no mention of the NDP in the referendum question..Therefore if he loses the OS vote with the fans he'll say "ah we cant stay at WHL as its too small" the NDP is unviable and QED we have to move to the OS
Thanks for your vote it means a lot to us blah blah
The reason it should only be season ticket holders and waiting list people is that it will stop bogus/rogue/plant voters and apparently in the NDP the fans have been central to the design and keeping them together and stuff..
Referendum will probably be shareholders only.
;)
I vote for Olympic stadium....
Stop thinking Tottenham [the place] (it's a hole anyway)
Think Future not History... and stop your emotions getting in the way
it's a great business decision and at the end of the day football clubs are businesses
Tomtraubert, are you on crack?
@chris
why!?
Going to the new club in east London (perhaps called THFC, but only in name) would be like paying the man who had just anally raped you, for the rest of your new club supporting days.
By manipulating the majority of fans into believing there is no other choice than to shut down THFC and open up a corporate franchise in another part of London makes Levy's job 'unviable'.
LEVY OUT!
Tomtraubert, cos your shaking and sweating heavily
Hopefully it would be independant. Lets just hope Spammers get it : )
Also It should be a season ticket / members only vote.
Bill Nicholson, standing in front of the gates that are known to us as, Bill Nicholson's Gates.... I take it these gates will be transported to the OS should our bid be sufccesfull? With the NLD we were told a statue of Bill Nicholson would also be erected outside the stadium , will we be doing likewise in Newham ?
I ask these questions because in my working life, I have travelled to many of areas in London and there were times that my van and sometime my head too, would sport our beloved cockeral be it car sticker or headgear .... I can honestly say that the only times my van was ever vandalised were in East London and the anymosity I felt in those areas were clearly more evident than elsewhere ....
If anyone had told me a few years back that Spurs fans were up for moving to East Ham , Stratford I'd say to them , fcuk off are you mad!
The truth is, we're not really wanted in Newham by many of the locals, infact its an area where we're most hated, often it has to be said , at unhealthy levels too but there you go ...
Before the Spurs bid was tabled , West Ham fans were something like 10-1 against the move , now its 3- 1 in favour ....Why the shift, the big turnaround ? Well its simple really... They hate their own plans and the idea of moving away from the Boleyn Ground but they feel, that should Spurs make the move, it could kill their club (not something I personaly believe , in fact I believe it could well make them stronger but thats another matter) .. So basicaly we'd would be moving into an area with alot of hate coming our way ....
So my advice to the the owners and fans alike should we get the OS .. By all means take the Bill Nicholson Gates and build the statue like you say you will Mr Levy ...However, make sure its all enclosed and with 24/7 CCTV for safe keeping ...And for those of you that will travel by car rather than public transport , do not display our teams colours on your motors ... Remember , you're no longer in Tottenham but Newham , you have been warned...
TMWNN - wtf! You have clearly missed the point.
It has to be for members (that includes season ticket holders obviously) registered since - when? this season, 5 seasons?
Leavin it open leaves it open to abuse; leaving it to season ticket holders only excludes valuable (and honourable) supporters who at the moment may just not be able to get a season ticket.
Personally - I don't think that we're going to need to vote. The previous Labour government has ensured that this is a complete **** up and are about to finish that off by giving the site to a consortium that we're (as UK tax payers) going to be subsidising for a long, long time.
warmad, there'll be sucking our north london cocks within five years, dont be such a pussy
TIMBER,
What point have I missed? The one where our chairman is trying to shut down THFC under false pretences and start a new club where he'll make more money for himself, ENIC and AEG?
Read between the lines guys, Levy has brought us the best chance of glory in half a century, he has the borough by the balls, because if we leave WHL it will send the area back into the middle ages and they know it, we need better roads, parking, infrastructure eg... underground, and the borough they wanted us to pay for it !!! No way, they should do everything they can to avoid Spurs leaving their spiritual home, but they are dragging there feet. DL is right we need what will be an advantage to the club we don't need debt. I want to see spurs prospering in the future not mid table and if you agree with me then trust in what has already been great decision making from our chairman.
COYS
FOGS
STANDUPYID
Pussy ??? You aint got a clue Chris ...Before you get the Vote by the democrat Levy ....Go do a trial run then or are you all mouth? ....
Don the Spurs colours, daytime is fine and take a walk through Stratford or anywhere in Newham, then come back to me ... ..
warmad -
Park your car in Tottenham in an inconspicuous place and leave a Spurs hat on the driver's seat. See how long your driver's window stays intact...
Redeveloping WHL would put the club in jeprody, simple as that. We could easily be looking at ten years of being absolutely shit, fighting for our survival every year.
If we move to the olympic site we'd carry on with our current scale of investment and maybe even start investing more. In other words we'd have a good crack at finishing in the top three every season.
So it all comes down to whether youre willing to take the risk.
warmad, you really are a pussy aren't you. You should change your name to 'warmad the massive pussy'
Who knows what Levys overall goal is and how far he is willing to go to get it. I would happily have him as chairman for a long time if we stay in our borough. If moved us into East London then he can do one.
Please west ham win the fricken bid, all this shit is doing my head in. The arguments either way are too strong. Its a lose / lose situation
Why do we get different people (generally) posting about Stratford to those posting about football?
Spooky, what is the stay/go consensus on closed shop Spurs forums, where not anyone can post?
TMWNN
You may not like capitalism, but it's the world we live in. At the moment what is good for THFC is good for ENIC. If they honestly thought moving would shut down THFC then they wouldn't move. I'm sorry to say this to someone who is so obviously so very Xtremely passionate about THFC - but you are letting heart rule head.
Just think - would you move from one area to another if it meant your kids could play outside without fear, walk to school without worrying about insane traffic and when they got there they'd get a better education from a newer, richer school? I know what we did and we've never looked back - but my family is still the same, just better.
Ok, so NLD not viable, OS cheaper and great facilities etc.. But in 2 other clubs back yard...
My question is... "If the NLD is now not viable, is there NOWHERE in the whole of North London that would be suitable.?"
I am not from N.London, but get around town a lot.. My experience of N.London is that there is a lot of desolate, run down areas & some open spaces... Are none of these suitable for a major stadium? I really cant believe there is nowhere in the whole of North London... The OS may be wonderful and financially a great idea.. But I doubt we would get relegated, even if we had to tighten the purse strings to stay North. I would hate to lost the Tottenham in THFC all for being a little skint for 5 / 10 years... The club lives on after all, no matter what happens to the stadium.
Tottenham Hotspur is a brand name.
Kentucky fried chicken isnt called Watford fried chicken cos its in watford is it?
Do you agree with me warmad you pussy?
What time does the result come out??
Lemonade - not sure, but get the feeling some of them are pro-move. I don't post in forums that are 'closed', so to speak. Lost some login details and the whole process of signing up for some of them is borderline fucking stupid.
@Matt
Well said. THFC is about 125+ years of history (mostly unsuccesful) but that hasn't stopped me going for the last 30 years. I'd rather stay in a rebuilt WHL and win nothing for 10 years than write-off the soul and history of the club.
To those that question the financial viability of staying where do you get your detailed information from because I haven't seen the income/debt repayment forecasts that show we won't be able to buy another player for years?
I say again - if Levy thought this whole thing unaffordable and bad for the future of the club we would never have prepared and submitted detailed costed plans for WHL in the first place.
Too many people are swallowing Levy's PR when none of the key questions have been answered.
Easy with the insults Chris, it's clear you do not understand what's being said here ....
Whilst Im not predicting Sullivan style riots ( although in these harsh economic times which are to get worse, it's possible ), it seems many of you pro Stratford people think we can just up sticks and move into the East End without repurcussions lol
Like I said , do the test then come back to me ...
Does anybody know what is to stop them choosing the original option of a 25k mixed use stadium?
Who would pay for that?
I still can't see how West Ham's bid is better than our one, but due to the general opinion of public and the old athletes having their say against Spurs, it may be back to Plan A.
And I wonder if any of the athletes have actually looked at what might remain after all is said and done, one things for sure it will bear no resemblance to the Olympic Stadium they keep banging on about.
Still seems mad to me that a stadium is being built for £500m with no food outlets or toilets and after a few weeks the plan was to rip most of it down anyway. This whole bid process has done a great job of papering over that particular use of our money so that people are now against "rich football clubs" rather than poor planning and foresight by our own Olympic Bid team.
Still 3 points tomorrow will keep me smiling - after the next 7 games we'll be back in the Top4 and ready to fight to the end of the season.
warmad, i know sorry maybe I was a bit over the top with that.
Im not pro-stratford I just dont want to be left behind - again.
The olympic stadium seems to offer us this window of opportunity to become a super club within five years, it just seems like an offer too good to refuse.
I can just hear people ten years down the line saying 'Mug spurs fans could of become a super club, could of had a world class stadium but turned it dowm, typical tottenham'
People think Levy and ENIC have a duty to spend money on us and make us a great club, when in actual fact were lucky to have a company like them as our owners and should at least listen peoperly to what there saying.
Oh I dont know, its doing my nut in to be honest. I hopw west ham get it so the options gone once and for all.
I gaurentee all the press hacks and all the idiot pundits who are saying 'Tottenham should stay in Tottenham' & 'Tottenham would be selling there soul if they left', I gaurentee as soon as we turned the Olympic stadium down there views would sudedenly change and you'd hear 'Tottenham are mugs for not taking that stadium' and all that bollocks. We need to be selfish and ruthless if we want big time success, you cant rrust other peoples judgment on this
Chris - I think you speak for the vast majority of THFC fans:
Torn between love of what has been and what might be;
confused about what the future might be;
p1ssed off that we've (and I include WH in this) got to this point where all this tax payer money has been so obviously spunked down the toilet without any future thinking behind it
One thing you have to say about ENIC - they don't like wasting money as much as politicians seem to!
Further to my comment above about other possibilities in North London, I also think it needs remembering that some of the cost attributed to staying with the NLD is that for a year or 2 we will only have half a stadium and only be receiving half gate receipts, maybe this has added to make it less viable, as it wouldnt be the case at the OS.
But if we were to build another stadium in N.London, we wouldnt have to reduce the gate receipts while building and also get to sell off the lane that WHL currently sits on (or maybe develop for community purpose, if that can bring in an income also).
I may be wrong about this point, but we would own the stadium if we build our own, whereas I think the OS will only be on lease.. Not sure what implication this has financially long term...
Who listens to Talksport during the morning drive - hands up...
This morning Rob Shepherd was the journo speaking to Brazil and he was banging on about "Spurs shouldn't get" this, "Spurs are crap" that. Brazil turned round to him and said "and who do you support" Well I grew up in West Ham".
Most London based journos are Arse or Spammers. It's just the way it is. And do you know what - they're desparate for us not to get the OS. This, more than anything else (and I think there's plenty of other reasons to get it), makes me think it must be the best option!
Daveray, its so true.
Gooners would be sick as parrots if we built a stadium far superior to their's for half the price.
As for west ham, we'd kill the club off within twenty years, all future little hammers would be future little yids.
@ Matt
We wouldn't lose any gate receipts according to the plan as they will effectively build the new one around the existing stadium. So we would have minimum 36,000 all along.
We would then move into new stadium when 2/3 complete and for 12 months have an open end but still have probably 40k crowd.
@chris
Big bowl of chicken soup and a mug of coffee has sorted me right out
Sweating under control now shakes lessening in severity/weird lookingness
My analogy needs a bit of work but its on the right path
Cant wait for a definitive end to this so we know where we stand......its a bloody big game being played by all sides (I notice KB has kept her big multi cock sucking gob shut recently) and we are all caught in the middle tearing strips off eachother.
Has Woody only played behind closed-doors games so far? Has anybody any real idea how well he is coming along?
If he could come back in and play the rest of the season at 90% of his previous quality then it would be a massive boost to us.
So if the vote isn't going to go in your favor, then level accusations of unfair elections, and BOYCOTT THE VOTE. I'm being totally serious---Levy will rig it in some way (i.e. only Chirpy and his immediate family members will vote---I personally think Chirpy is the power behind the throne), so the only way to call attention to it is to boycott it.
Chris I too believe that you speak for the majority of us. I am also torn like a lot of Spurs fans about losing our heritage for future success. I respect the comments by fans who want to stay at WHL and not be a big club but they should also respect our point of view. i have been going to WHL for 4o years and I have loved the CL football this year. This is what I want year after year. Look at the SCUM, they can do it every year...why can't we?? However, we will only be able to compete if we get a bigger stadium and more revenue.
Haringey Council have only themselves to blame when they made such demands on Spurs to improve the area with their own money. That has put the costs up by £100m..why should Levy pay this for Haringey??
There are lots of potential places in Enfield or just outside in Hertfordshire where most of the Spurs supporters come from anyway. let's all respect each others view and opinions and get on with supporting the club we all love and cherish.
Watch how we find a way around this whole N 17 problem once Stratford is awarded to someone other than us.