What is Tottenham Hotspur?
Wednesday, October 12, 2011 at 2:24PM Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in. This Stratford saga is never ending.
I posted the below over in the thread 'The East End itch Levy can't quite scratch...' at The Fighting Cock forum. I've made some amends to it for this blog. Promised myself I wouldn't got back to discussing this, but then it's one of those subjects that fragments us (an already fragmented fanbase).
Be sure to join in the discussion.
What is Tottenham Hotspur?
Its difficult to talk about this question because you can sit and attempt to quantify what constitutes emotional detachment and what defines a club and what it means in practicality for hours and still not get anywhere when attempting to use said arguments in relation to a potential move away from N17.
So what is Tottenham? Is it the fans? The area? Do you define a club by its traditions and if so, what are traditions? Style of play, memories of games? Players? Celebrations? Infamous away trips? Hatred for other clubs? The Lane? The journey into the Lane? So much goes into constructing the DNA of a supporter and club. I think its all of the above, all mashed together in a sexy gooey kinda way.
Football is emotive, so surely it should be based on emotions?
What? Oh yeah, PLC. I need to remember to get a tattoo of that on my back.
If we moved down the road, say to another part of North London, there would be a transitional period for all of us attempting to move on from the fact we've left WHL. It happens in life when you leave a job, split up with your partner or someone dies. You think its all gone and it wont be the same again, its all changed, but you adapt and you end up embracing the present and look towards the future.
No matter where we play, you could argue, Spurs exist because they exist in our heads and in our minds. If there were no Spurs fans they'd be no club. Now before I drown in deeply philosophical musings that I'm struggling to articulate because I'm sober...what I'm saying is, I do get that history DOES count and everything this club has achieved will not suddenly disappear because we've shifted home.
Or will it? Will people look back on it with some degree of detachment? Will it matter if that happens when I hit the grand old age of 70 and new young football fans don't much care for whatever happened back in the days of HD and 3D tv, what with their 'Watch the game with retina-cam' via your fav player with Holographic TV™.
I wasn't alive in the 1960s yet that side, those players, they feel and belong to me as much as any player or team I have watched in the modern era.
Spurs won the double in 61. Eight FA Cups. Trophies in Europe. I could name 50 flair players off the top of my head that made their mark for our club. These are the things we can't lose because what has happened can never be changed, but the clubs actual physical persona, its character and its appearance will forever morph into something completely different. And why? Because at that (this) moment in time Stratford was more affordable and feasible than N17.
Revenue, 60K + attendances, new supporters, corporate hospitality to die for, transport links made in heaven...all this has nothing to do with what happens on the pitch when Spurs play. I'm talking in the purest sense here. If it takes another 10 years to get the NDP sorted I'd rather wait then spend another 100 years in N17 than to uproot and move to another part of London just because it's a more fiscal do-able option in the short term.
I get its a business. I get shareholders and investment. But that doesn't mean I should conform. Tottenham (like many clubs) have copyrighted everything to do with the club. Brand. Tottenham the brand. You want use the THFC club badge on your blog because you're a fan? Sorry, no chance. Pay Spurs first for the privilege. Or be sued. Why? Because you can't be making money off the Tottenham brand. That's modern football. If I'm in the minority that wish to hold onto the last surviving romantic notions, then so be it.
Why the mad rush and the opportunistic short cut with the OS bid? Football might well implode in the next 10 years, we don't know. The mad rush is because of those shareholders and their demand for it. They invested money. You can't argue against their argument. But again, why should that concern me?
I guess football has moved on and I'm refusing to move with it.
Billionaires are buying up clubs left right and centre and changing the competition and the landscape of competitiveness. Again, I'd rather be this plucky team on the outside punching our way in. And if we get in, and we enjoy a cycle of success and then lose that cycle. So be it. That's football. Not everyone has that honour of silverware. Nobody is at the top forever. We've not quite been at the top for a long long time. I'd welcome it. Would even be acceptable in small doses.
So it all comes back to what you define as heritage and would constitutes an acceptable sacrifice (i.e. leaving North London to settle in East London) to consolidate progression and that competitive spirit in this age of money.
The club would have moved had they won the bid. That's the scary thing. The power of our custodians over the voice of the dispensable fan all too evident.
We are Tottenham, a small club they say, yet we always compete or at least show ambition to and the last 15 years or so (the barren 90s) has been down to bad management on the pitch (and off) in terms of managerial appointments. We still make money, we still splash said money. And look at us now, with the monopoly practically dead, we are always in with a chance. It's exciting. Let's not forget its all the depression that makes the good times good.
We need a bigger ground, not because I'm concerned about the £££ but because we have loyal hardcore fans who want season tickets and they are much needed because 50k will make more noise than 37K. The extra revenue will obviously help to bolster the rich and spoilt millionaires that wear the shirt with a fraction of the loyalty we possess. That's the hit right there.
I probably still haven't got my point across in the best way, but I guess what I want, what I need as a fan is different to how others might perceive things. Some are simply focused on the fact that a bigger stadium will equate to more money that will somehow guarantee success and glory. Might. Might not. It's a risk either way. Would prefer to retain our identity. I do agree we need to be ambitious. But want us to anchor ourselves to some of that emotive stuff that glues as together. That's the identity with all the romantic caveats attached.
You know, from my front door, Stratford is thirty minutes away by tube (and I don't even live in London). But I'd still rather spend 1 hour + getting into that sh*t hole in North London.
That's just me.
Reader Comments (42)
Whatever we are and it's clearly a bit of all the things you mention, a largepart of it is certainly WHL.
My point is we don't have to move.
We have planning permission to rebuild on the spot.
When it becomes 'viable' again,
and all we are waiting for is a 'face saver' for Levy
we can get on.
We don't have to throw away this part of our identity and history.
The clue is in the name: Tottenham Hotspur Football Club'
A football club from, and in, Tottenham.
...absolutely, its all about identity...look what happened to Wimbledon - aka MK Dons - and look what happening now with AFC Wimbledon just of people (fan) power. I've been going to the lane for 50 years - first season on the terraces was the famous double - so a bit late to change now. Stratford is not for me.
Am I first?
Stratford . . . Never was, never is and never will be of real interest to the fans, the club or the chairman. Its not rocket science to read between the lines of whats been going on and the desired outcome is on its way. The "I love Daniel" pillowcases will be available in the club shop as from opening day of the new sparkling WHL . . . ; )
Uh-oh! Here we go again...
BRACE FOR IMPACT!!!
I lived in Oz for a while and they moved a few clubs there, ok in a larger scale to cities 15 hours away,
what happened is people stopped supporting them and chose another local club (barnet?) and the new locals had a club.
I believe if spurs move to stratford they will no longer be Tottenham Hotspur
I really don't believe we were ever seriously going to move, although, right at the start of the process there is a chance it could have been viewed as a serious bid. Anyway, the stadium is rubbish, that's what bothers me, there would be changes but it would still be a giant circle with awful atmosphere shared with bloody cricket etc!
If we moved you would lose 'some' supporters but as it's only 3 miles away (that could be completely wrong, it's what I was told and haven't the inclination to look it up - as it will never be relevant) - even so... you get on a metal box that slides a long the tracks and arrive at the home of Spurs, would make no difference to me if that silver box (within reason - obviously north of the river and within 'single digit' miles of where we are now) pulled up somewhere else and let me out the door - Spurs are Spurs, it's in your head, they are who you choose them to be... if they moved to stratford, kept the players, kit men, owners etc then to me they will still be spurs - 100% rather they continued with current plans though.
Don't think I made my point very well... tough to quite tie togeth3er exactly what I mean :{
You have to put this in an historic context I'm afraid. My earliest memories of the lane are being passed over everyone's heads and sitting in front of the barrier with all the other small children. Later, as a teenager, we changed ends at half time so we could always be behind the goal Spurs were attacking. By the time I took my sons, none of this was allowed and they didn't believe me when I told them about it. So the experience is very different for them and my feelings don't register. In the same way, if we did move to Stratford (unlikely now it seems) the next generation of fans wouldn't give a toss about N17. We would probably end up being called Hotspur, not Tottenham Hotspur. There is a red mess not far from us that used to be based in South London and called Woolwich something. They moved to North London years ago and dropped the Woolwich. Do you think any of their fans today care about that - I bet most of them don't even know it. So, move to Stratford or not, it will be forgotten in an historic heartbeat.
I'm not from tottenham (as you can tell from my name),
and only get to the lane once a year,
but it would not be the same anywhere else for me.
The buzz i get walking down the road towards the ground is unbelievable.
You obviously have never experienced pre-match beers at the local watering holes to come out with that comment. Its all about the location, every time you get off at Seven Sisters its that 20 minute walk of anticipation that builds before the game, meeting your fellow Yid brothers, building up the frenzy before the whistle. Where will you get that at Stratford OR any where else. There is no place like our High Road on match day our TRUE home.
That was;nt aimed at you Preston
Dude! Do you remeber when you used to do pithy and not just over blown and long winded?
We are Tottenham, we are Tottenham, super Tottenham from the Lane, we are Tottenham, super Tottenham, we are Tottenham from the Lane! Enough said. It's the Lane, it's Tottenham, it's home, warts and all. Nowhere else will come close.
Pithy? I still do. But come on, you know me, I love to use 10,000 words when only 1,000 would do.
PL Block 33,row 12 - Course I have - but at the same time, as Spooky said in the article - you find somewhere new, all the same mates will be there you get used to it then that becomes home. The only reason anywhere is 'home' is familiarity and consistancy, no one likes change, so most of the time change is a forced option but once you're settled into the new way of being you'll be just as happy, whatever you may think beforehand! The main reason I think like this could be that I hate the town, I worked in tottenham and I can tell you now the walk down the high road is not the same when there is you on your own and it's 10pm... had my fair share of run ins with residents and basically think it's a run down sh1t hoel... I'll get slated for that but if you take the emotion away from supporting the club that lives there you would all agree. however, I think this is all moot (however you spell that) as we are going to be staying put... having seen the 'future plans' I love the look of it and already get a feel for the atmosphere from the picture alone...
In a perverse way, all those horrible things that go into surviving Tottenham make us the self-deprecating fans we are. I don't think I could ever be comfortable with us winning 10 titles on the trot.
Like I said, if our next cycle brings silverware and we do so consistently for 5-10 years, I will bask in it and I wont complain when we fall back into normality again.
The new fans we pick up along the way will no doubt be similar to the ones with their 'Wenger Out' banners, beyond the Seven Sisters.
Hi Spooky ..another great read (even if somewhat lengthy)
Like Bob I also remember the 'Golden Years' As a kid I also used to get lifted over heads to the front railings, I even have vague merrories of catching a trolley bus in from Edmonton (sad bastard) now as a resident of Oz most of my matchtime is at 2300hrs (11pm) perched on the edge of my chair. However 2 or 3 times a year I manage to get a game at the lane (thank god for the touts) I tell you now the Buzz I get is just as intense as all those years ago... Stratford ??? STICK IT WHERE THE SUN DONT SHINE long live our ancestral home WHL
Stratford is West Ham country. I would never be comfortable there. Enfield, Ponders End or even Cockfosters and I could still identify with the club as Tottenham Hotspur, but Stratford no, it would be a very sad day for the identy of our club. And spooky, as you said, to think that the custodians would have moved and without a fans referendum is very scarey.
I'm not from the area, so my initial reaction to the OS was that it should be explored as an option. From a business point of view it made sense, but then a football club is more than just a business.
The more I thought about it, the less comfortable I was with the idea of moving, especially having first seen the Architect's Impressions of the NDP. For me, my memories are of the journey in; I'm from Birmingham so on the drive down was a big thing for me, especially as we approach the stadium. I still remember the first game I went to, and the first glimpse I got of the steelwork of WHL over the houses. Those feelings are rekindled every time I get to go; I doubt the same feelings would have been generated if we went to the OS; it would just seem like an away match!
Much rather we stand on our own two feet and build our own ground and help redevelop the surrounding area. Tottenham is a hole, but, as it's been said many times before, it's our hole.
I would take a lot of pride in being part of the club that help regenerate the area around Tottenham, rather than just abandoning it. Afterall, Tottenham has been our home for over 125 years. The local residents have put up with us stealing their parking spaces every other week. The local business have relied on our custom (I'm still gutted Neptune the chippy was closed down, but hey ho). We owe it to these people to put something back into the comuunity that has housed us, accepted us, put up with us for so long.
Not advocating anything here, one way or the other.
If we moved, would it not just be another part of our glorious history in twenty years time?
The thing is that you "get" it. And it's even more visceral than you suggest. It's North London, not south of the River or east of the Lea. Probably more difficult for the postmoderns, who have little sense of place (comes of being ferried to school and not doing maps). But what I've been a part of since 1959 (fill in your own equivalent dates...) is about place, ethos, and how we do stuff round here. It's intangible, and pretty fragile, as those incomers down the road discovered when they moved to their new Library built on what used to be the municipal rubbish tip. We need that big new stadium. It needs to have soul. and it needs to be in N17 and to gather up all that has shaped this club into the next years of loveable, exasperating, brilliant future Spurs glory.
We've got the space, we've got the permission and we've got the support that will ensure the costs will be paid off. Let's forgive the Tottenham fans who were misguided enough to think that Stratford was ever anything other than lunacy, and get the fuck on with building the NDP!
i heard on the fighting spurs podcast a guy named alex in cincinnati ohio. im in over the rhine and watch every spurs match i can. i have a few friends i have pulled into the heartbreak of being a spurs fan. get back to me if you want to get togethr for matches. COYS
Dude, send your request to thefightingcock@gmail.com and we'll mention it on the next pod and see if we can get the two of you to meet up.
In a motel. With hookers.
Or just to watch the Spurs games. Whichever you prefer.
In a motel with hookers? Wont he get a surprise when he opens the door and finds a couple of big rugby players lying on the bed!
"'Watch the game with retina-cam' via your fav player with Holographic TV™."
Shall we file a patent?
My family and I have moved house many times. They are still my family and this new house is my home.
"There is a red mess not far from us that used to be based in South London and called Woolwich something. They moved to North London years ago and dropped the Woolwich. Do you think any of their fans today care about that - I bet most of them don't even know it. So, move to Stratford or not, it will be forgotten in an historic heartbeat."
Oct 12, 2011 at 3:04 PM | bob
There's another side to that penny sir. The other fans side. How often have the marsh dwellers struggled out of their history only to be shoved back down in into the stinking mess by the weight of public ridicule.... I, for one, couldn't live with the knowledge that my club was doing the same.
Hypocrisy never !! COY - Whitehart Lane - SPURS
We can't even sell out the Lane against Villa without it going to General Sale, we don't need a bigger stadium. All it will lead to is a bunch of tourists and glory hunters even more so if it was the OS.
Probably be less than 20k for the Rubin Kazan game as well, after last years CL games and the rush for tickets this has really made me glad the OS is not an option and never happened.
We can wait, only 4 teams can get to the CL each year. The ones doing it at the moment are either the biggest club on the planet or billionaire playthings. We are neither.
Arsenal are about to feel the pain of falling out of the CL and losing star players with a huge ground to fill. Wonder what the Emirates will be like half full every week. I don't want that for Spurs.
Good point, Diaz. Why are tickets going on general sale when there are supposedly 30,000 waiting desperately to get in?
"'Watch the game with retina-cam' via your fav player with Holographic TV™."
I had a rectal cam once and it was not very pleasant...can you trademark that?
I like this whole moving house thing that I keep seeing pop up. Surely a house is a house, a home.
Anyway when was the last time you stood outside yours 3pm on a Saturday afternoon, shouting and swearing at people from neighbouring houses for daring to come on your "manor" and generally taking the piss out of them?
I don't think I've ever done that................maybe I should, or maybe not.
Great post but to the point that if Spurs moved from Tottenham it might make fans in the future not care about the history of Spurs like you (Spooky) do. That's probably the case for a majority of fans in the future whether Spurs keep playing in WHL, a new stadium in Tottenham, or anywhere else.
I feel sad watching your game turn into an American-esque ran sport. It pain me to read supporters of any club slowly start to concede that football is mearly a business now, and fans are the last priority for the people who run the sport.
Looking at the NBA right now shoud give football fans a glimpse into the near future. Fans are completely out of any discussion when it comes to splitting up over 4 billion in revenue a year. Or look at the NFL, which at this point doesn't really need any fans to attend games and in fact would prefere to have only coorporate boxes and licenced seats that cost thouseands of dollars (licenced seat is where you have to buy a seat before you have the right to buy a ticket).
That's the future of football and it involves supporters watching matches on HDTV and occasionally attending a match sitting hundreds of feet in the air becaseu there are multiple rows of luxury boxes to fit in, wehre the crowd is dead because 90% of the crowd is only there becasue it's the thing to do and when you're charge the tickets to your coorporation they count as a tax write off meaning the actual fans pay for some exectutive to be there in person, while you watch on TV, trying to convince yourself you still care like you used to.
Spooky, I am a local spur. I find it offensive when people continually call my area a sh*t hole.
I am proud of my area called Tottenham,the area that gave birth to my beloved Spurs, the ONLY club of North London,(apologies to fans of Barnet FC). To move away from the area would be the death of THFC
The shit hole remark is something that got tagged onto this whole debate back when the OS was a possibility and people attempted to find reasons to move to East London.
Still, you can't argue, the area is in desperate need of help.
Response appreciated spooky, and you are correct. All of us in the area would love to see some genuine help.
Stratford/Leyton is a massive shit hole. Especially Leyton. But thanks to the Olympics...
I hear ya spooky...i hear ya. May the NDP materialise.
Those NDP plans of what the stadium would look like are awesome. Would be one of the best grounds in the premiership..
Firstly, please be aware that I/we are unable, because of distance, & cost, to attend WHL as often as would be wished. I should be an advocate of the move, as it will undobtedly open up the opportunity to buy seats more often for my children - but I'm not.
Try as I might, I can't think of another club where the road sign is as recognisable as the club name - even forming tattoo's in some instances. I'm sure we have all seen the logo 'Football is my religion, WHL is my church' - that is EXACTLY how I feel about our home. 'PL' sums it up perfectly; the walk from Seven Sisters (or from the Archway, back in the day), the camaraderie of the fans, the atmosphere in the seething, busy, High Road, where just for once, people are more important than vehicles.
Compare arrival @ WHL to Old Trafford, or any other 'modern' ground, and there is no like; WHL must be re-built, to allow for the same feeling for those zealots attending, AND for the community, who deserve the support of the club, and the fans. Helping to justify the ridiculous spend the Gov't have made in Stratford, alienating our fans & our community, is insane, and would merely make the club the whipping boys of the Gov't taskmasters.
COYS!
Oi! I'm in leyton, it ain't that bad.......!
I love walking to the lane from the station. Where else would you here the away fans (shamrock) chanting "I wanna go home, this is the longest walk, I've ever been on".
Tottenham (club and area) should fight to keep its heart.
Game tomorrow and lots of new injuries (Adebayor, VDV, Niko, Lennon, Sandro) short at RM especially so we may be forced to play someone out of position there.
Friedel
Kyle Kaboom King Benny
Livermore Sandro Mod Scott Bale
Defoe
That includes just one of the doubtfuls (Sandro). A brick wall of a midfield with goal threat from Bale, Defoe, Walker, Modric. Big test for Defoe without Adebayor. Spurs to win 1-0(Bale).
Cincyspurs, I'm in Cincinnati too. Usually one of the few cheering on Spurs at Molly Malone's in Covington. Where do you watch?