NLD: post-match thoughts and stuff
Wednesday, September 22, 2010 at 12:00PM Okay, so it’s the morning after, and I've stated countless times I have no intention of excusing the 4-1 loss, but there is no reason to perhaps add perspective to the result and try to understand it.
I know Arsenal fans are desperate to wipe clean the memory of the 5-1 and last seasons 2-1 which ended their season (deal with it Wenger) but let's get some perspective here. Had we won last night, the game would not have got a dvd release.
Selections and formations
Harry stated, a while back, that the game is fundamentally about the players. No matter the formation. 10% about the formation, 90% about the players on the pitch. To quote him:
"If you have the best ones and they do their jobs, then they can pretty much play any way you want them to"
So no shocker then that when you play Palacios in an offensive midfield position, Bentley on the wrong flank, Gio on the wrong flank, then stick in some debutants including Sandro - who, let's be fair, is not going to be that confident in the side fielded unlike say a side with the likes of Bale, Huddlestone, Modric and vdV surrounding him.
I don't blame Harry for playing the players he played. Rock and hard place. If he's not going to play key players, he has no choice but to play the fringe ones. To be honest, I didn't expect Wenger to select so many first teamers in his squad - and then play all of them. I guess he really wants to win something this season.
I stand by my pre-match belief that a NLD is exactly that and we should never be looking to field a non-competitive side. Fact is, the patched up ethic doesn't work for us. It's not so much to do with out of form players or even out of position players (although that has an influence). It's to do with the lack of an in-house top to bottom philosophy.
Philosophy you say?
Our first team is rather good. Our first team would have beaten the team Arsenal put out last night. I'm confident of that. More than confident. Arsenal's first team? Well, that would have been a full blown NLD, blood and thunder and silky skills. We got nothing of the sort last night. So why can Arsenal play a mixture of youth, fringe players and first teamers and look so comfortable against our side of not so many first teamers, put plenty of supposed quality and promising youth?
Well firstly, the supposed quality is either spent or inept. And the promising youth is just that, but not yet excelling. Simply put. Wenger, the canny s.o.b. and the culture he has instilled into their club means that from top to bottom they play a distinctive style. Players are signed and developed to fit into a style of play. Its all very specific, and although arguably, at the moment (at least in the past half-decade) its not proving to be successful in terms of silverware, they do produce very clean, crisp, technical football. They are still massive c**ts, blatantly, in terms of moaning/diving/non-acceptance of defeat - but what it does mean is that they can mix and match and not betray their philosophy of play. There appears to be no detrimental effect, although, under-strength Wenger sides have had their arses spanked before. There are limits. The hype is just that.
There is also no doubting we play with a swagger and style. We always have. It's also the culture of the club to play sweeping pulsating football. But what last night proved is that if you don’t play a spine of first team players, if you take key players out of the equation, it all falls apart. It's not so much sweeping, but more sleeping. Yes, Harry did not help matters what with players out of their natural positions. And some of the players did not help themselves (what is the point of David Bentley again?). There was no cohesion or togetherness out there from our lot. Disjointed the thought of the day.
Our players are player-dependent. The system, it works best when the key players are starting. If we miss key players, there is still enough about the collective, mental strength wise, to still pull it altogether. Far too many light-weights, in the head department, last night. Then again, this is just the one game, so I won't be looking to scape-goat. More on Harry and the players below.
I'm not suggesting an overhaul of the academy, re-introduction of the reserve team etc - although that would be fantastic in terms of long term plans. In the short term, if we're going avoid risking key players but still remain competitive, then for starters - let's have some consistency in formation and balance the team out so it can at least pretend to try and play like a full strength first team. This would mean, signing a particular ilk of player. It's not an over-night solution. And Harry - long term - might not have the inclination to work in this way. Levy - wise up and get on it. If anything, the academy really has to start pushing on at same point soon.
Quick-fire player reviews
Pletikosa - Not very convincing
Naughton - Struggled
Caulker - Played well, but clumsy needless penalty. Would want to see him involved in more games because there is defo something about him that would have me think he has a future
Bassong - Meh
Assou-Ekotto - Was fine, nothing more, but you try looking effective with Bentley up ahead of you
Gio - Had to be subbed. This kid must have something if you can do it at international level. Time Harry cut him same slack ON the pitch
Sandro - Debut, NLD, showed glimpses but can't be too critical, considering the surroundings
Livermore - Struggled, not quite ready, even for a lower-tier cup game
Palacios - He's a DM, not a very good one at the moment regarding form, so why start him in a more offensive position?
Bentley - Honestly mate, stick to setting your foot on fire and diving into in-door swimming pools
Pav - No service, is not the type of player to carve out something from nothing
Keane - He scored. Hit the woodwork. Didn't do too badly, but if we're comparing him to Keane of old, it's all a bit depressing. He has lost the mojo.
Lennon - Little room for movement, little effort when the ball was at his feet. Do we need to draft in a psychologist?
Kranjcar - Out of position
As for the swamp things?
Plenty of possession, movement and passing. Didn't create that much though, did they? Two penalties won them the match, even with our complete incompetence to resemble a competitive side, it flattered them. I know, that's subjective. I wonder if Wenger will play a full strength side if he faced Chelsea in the next round? Probably beat them, innit, what with them being wonder-kid toddlers with mental matrix skillabilities. Gooners are really milking this, bless 'em. I guess they have to take what's handed to them on a plate and make the very most of it. At least they care enough to gloat. Take the bragging rights - no argument - but don't kid (lol) yourselves. It's not half as impressive as you'd like it to be. But then, you know that.
Conclusion
Harry got it wrong. It happens. Did he honestly think Wenger would play the under 11's? Whatever it was he tried to do failed, epically. It's frustrating that, say the likes of Gio who hardly gets a chance, gets one but is played out of position. Bentley, who you'd hope would want to change his application to something that doesn't involve him pouncing around like a really crap David Beckham impersonator, failed to ignite any hope of redemption. I'll stop now, I did say - no scapegoats.
If he can learn something from this, it's some players really do need to be gone in Jan and others need to be developed and used effectively. It's a shake of the head from me that Harry didn't follow his own belief about playing players where they play best.
Even so, what with all the post-match reflection this morning, the game changed on the first penalty decision. The chances created prior to that (our chances) were better. So, in the grand scheme of things…don't read too much in it. It sucks losing to them, its never acceptable to lose in a dejectable manner, but that's football.
Roll on Saturday.
Reader Comments (181)
Dan what do you want us to say? That you smashed us up? Because you didn't. The scoreline was flattering. You won it in extra time. Not exactly Arsenal circa 96 is it?
1 teenager last night and you all claim inexperience, we have 7 and it's not an excuse.
You can't all be that thick surely? Deluded yes but you're not that thick.
From The Times : "...with Lansbury the only teenager plucked from Wenger’s reserves to start alongside five players involved in Saturday’s controversial draw away to Sunderland"
Kids.
No, I couldn't care less about last night. I knew we'd beat you when I saw the teams just as you knew you'd beat us 3 years ago at home with your best team against 7 teenagers but you all claim that we didn't have 7 teenagers playing despite the facts and that you claim it was our best team.
I thought your arguement wasnt about last night.......or was that because i proved you wrong about 3 years ago?
Once again Dan 'Sagna, Gallas, Hleb, Cesc (18min sub), Silva started 3 years ago. Diaby, Walcott and Denilson i admit were young players but i would be interested to see how many appearance they made for you before that game. Adebayor and Eduardo (when he was good!) came on with 30 mins to go? FACT!'
When someone admits we had 7 teenagers playing 3 years ago and you had 1 last night, I'll leave. All you keep saying is that we played sagna, gallas, hleb, Ade.... but the ignore that we played 7 teenagers with them.
But when you play 1 teenager and the rest a bunch of 5-16m reserves, you day it doesn't count.
You didn't mention Hoyte, Traore and Bedntner on top of Walcott, Denilson, Diaby and Cesc from the list of Sagna, Gallas, hleb and Silva.
7 teenagers with Gallas, Hleb, Silva and Sagna away from home against your best team counts.
but.
1 teenager and a team made up of over priced reserves at home against our reserves doesn't count.
Answer that and I'll leave.
LOCK THIS THREAD
Quickly look this thread before anyone realised that everything i've said is true and none of you can admit it.
Lock it quickly, put on the DVD.
Walcott had 25 club appearances, Bendtner 27, last night we had Livermore, Chaulker, Sandro, Naughton, Dos Santos, haev a combined 23. Like i said before not all about age but experience as playing as a team which i have reluctantly complemented both Arsenal and Wenger for.
...plus i bet yuou don't get a DVD haha
I don't want to wind up, you lot are alright, but you seriously can't blame other gooners for doing this. We didn't hear the end of Spurs Knobends crowing on our blogs after the 5 1 so Arsenal fans should have every right to do it back.
The game didn't really mean that much, you lot are better than that and we had a reasonably strong team, but it does strike me that you'll need Bale and Modric fit all season as I think the match would have followed a similair path whoever else (apart from those two) you had in midfield or attack. Maybe VDV will turn that good once he's bedded in but your a different team without them 2. You've got some bigger games coming up so it made a lot of sense for Harry to rest them. Get off his back!
..i'm enjoying the banter....done f**k all work though thank to you Dan! haha
Livermore is 21
Sandro is 21
Naughton is 21/22?
Dos Santos is 21.
They've all been pros for 3+ years and you think them being inexperienced is an excuse?
Seriously, 21 years of age hasn't been 'young and inexperienced' for a long time in the modern game. If you don't make it by 21, you're probably not good enough.
You should be questioning why you paid 5m for a 22 year old right back who is apparently so inexperienced?!
Cesc had made 250 appearances by the age Naughton is.
So you still can admit that we played 7 teenagers that night but your 22 year olds are mature or experienced enough for this type of game.
Don't need a DVD, V+ it.
You just hit the nail on the head 'Cesc had made 250 appearances by the age Naughton is'.... exactly! When you fielded 7 teenagers to your own credit they were experienced.
I don't start back at uni for another week so we can do this all day if you like. gotta go out at 7 though.
...correction not all were but you get my point
No, only cesc was experienced and he was still a teenager. The rest were all teenagers and inexperienced.
I was being sarcastic you humourless twat.
What an idiot.
So was I. The irony.
Unlucky you dirty yid cunts
Thats still alot more experience is the bank bone of your team then you lot like to make out. On top of that you Wenger has done well in making sure that your teams from the academy to senior all play the 'Arsenal Way', meaning when Wenger does bring in 6 falrly inexperienced players not only would they be able to adapt eaily they have more then likley played with each other many times over the years.
All this means that our 5-1 result was much more of a result to take seriously then last night...end of need to do some work!
Chirs thanks for the input.....I assume all the Pikeys forums are down at the mo?
"All this means that our 5-1 result was much more of a result to take seriously then last night...end of"
Seriously?
THICK AND DELUDED IT IS THEN.
Seriously, none of you are embarrassed that you think a first team beating a team with 7 teenagers at home is better than a reserve team battering another reserve team away from home because you claim that our young players know how to play "our footbal"l whereas yours don't and your 22 years aren't experienced enough.
You sound like a bunch of idiots.
That depends what you consider "experienced" to be. I'd say 20+ games (half a PL season) makes them relatively experienced, and as has been said, that covers at least Walcott and Bendtner from your "child" squad.
Our problem lies in our academy. At Arsenal, they bring in the young talent and every team plays in the same way, so when they reach the point of making their debut they know the system.
That's why Fabregas had made so many appearances by the age of 22 - he was offered a sweet when he was 16 and trained up. Naughton wasn't bought until he was 20, and isn't getting games week in, week out.
It strikes me that our academy teams don't have this method in place. Don't forget that we also disbanded the "Reserve" squad from that league - it's no wonder our lads struggle to perform when they get their opportunity.
That's also why Arsenal don't really have to spend money on new players, they bring them through, play them, then sell them when it dawns on them that they will never win anything!
We buy them, maybe play them, then sell them when Ferguson gives in to Levy's demands!
Listen to your excuses for why you beating our team of kids with your best team at home is an achievement.
I think it's starting to dawn on you that 3 years ago was bull as much as you like to deny it.
Never has the sound of silence felt so good.
You all know that everything i've said it completely true and you're trying to justify it by saying that our 18 year olds back then had played 22 games (20 as subs) in their career and so they were prepared to travel to their biggest rivals and play their best team but your 22 year olds who have been playing for 3/4+ years at spurs or elsewhere weren't prepared to play our reserves at home last night.
No are more inexperienced players don't necessarily know how to play the Tottenham way, it was a negative comment about my own team. This is a Spurs forum and sometimes we can be honest and criticise our own club where its due...... your lot, like your manager are blind when it come to Arsenal! 'Every club like to kick us' fucking grow up where you lot were the invincibles (remember that far back) your discipinary record was one of the worst in the league. Actaully since the likes of Bolton and Blackburn have been in the Prem isnt' yours is still worse?
Jesus fucking Christ, came on here to try and see what other Spurs fans are saying and it's a fucking mongfest with the few obsessed Goons. I, for one, cannot imagine wanting to spend so much of my time, if any at all, on an Arse site.
Man Utd fan here. Speaks volumes that the Arsenal supporter is trying so hard to get his point across. There was a time they obsessed about us.
For me, the game ended at the regulation time. The rest was a struggle with cramps, which may not be down to fitness but rather is the result of chasing shadows most of the game time. And that is direct result of giving out the midfield and playing too far off of the scum players.
I hope that every player learned something useful from it.
Harry wanted to lose and get the fixture list down, hence 11 strangers mostly out of position. Imagine his concern when he saw the scum were playing almost as shit as us. So he threw on Keane to fuck things up, but lo and behold Flapihandski let his weak shot through his fingers! Undetered he ordered BAE to increase the number of attempted dummies without clearing the ball, told Pav and Bentley not to pass to each other and the defence to blow on Nasri and Chamakh whenever they get in the box. Job done.
Dan - will you wind your neck in mate. Last nights match was not a patch on 3 years ago. When Spurs won 5-1 we were playing against an Arsenal starting 11 (not Denilson - we'll use Fabregas as he played 72 minutes) who had played only 7 less games in total that season than the spurs starting 11 in the same game. 9 of the same 11 players had played in the Champions League that season. They were not kids in the same regard that Wayne Rooney was a kid when he scored a screamer against you for Everton or of the same note that Danny Rose fired a wonderstrike that killed your Premiership Title hopes last year. Your team that day that shipped 5 goals in 90 minutes may have been young (kids so to speak because of there ages) but don't be fooled that they were inexperienced. Even Arsene wouldn't be so bold as to say that . Our team last night included 5 players making either there full debut or first start for our club. These players are not used to playing with each other - especially not at an elite level. Add to that David Bentley who was playing his first game of the season and who missed most of pre-season and Palacios who hasn't been the same since his brother was murdered. We had a disjointed ad disgraceful performance but it is understandable when you consider who was playing. You were worth the win but you did it in extra time. It was 1-1 after 90minutes. You didnt tank us. Far from it. Now I'm not expecting a response as you seem to only respond to the post you can muster some kind of argument for. All I'm saying is our 5-1 was much, much more impressive than the result last night.
FAO Arsenal fans. So, is the Carling Cup no longer Mickey Mouse?
Deluded Scottish. Painfuly deluded.
50 years...
Another reason for Arsenal's experience is keeping Wenger in charge.
Only United and Arsenal have seen players develop right through the ranks in recent times, and both have managers who have a decade or longer in charge.
Every time a new manager takes charge at a club, things change right through the set-up and this will affect everyone, from the youth academy to the first team.
We've seen so many changes, it's no wonder our players aren't developing to that level.
Harry Kane may be banging goals in for fun in the academy, but are they playing the same way our first team does?
Wenger knows that he can call on any player from their academy when required and they should slip right into the style of play.
Therefore, the teenagers of 3 years ago may not have been experienced in terms of Premiership football, but they certainly knew how Wenger wanted them to play. Our team last night didn't have the foggiest idea what to do for at least 45 mins!
Dan, can you not take your broken record over to some place like, oh, Glory Glory? They're all very patient over there and will, I'm sure, happily engage you in your friendly banter.
I agree, we can put players from the academy and expect them to do well walkerboy but not 7 kids away from home against your rivals best XI.
Yet you all still claim it was our first team or our super experienced youth team or whatever excuse you're now using.
It's all bull and kinda embarrassing the bull excuses and hypocrisy you guys have been spewing.
Feck me, dan still going on about last night!? Get a grip boy and grow some balls...
No, Im going on about 3 years ago. Get it right. Stop thinking about my balls, fag.
"Deluded" is that the only response you have? They are the facts. You talk about 21 being too old to be classed as immature and inexperienced. How many players plying their trade in the premiership are younger. Not many at all. I watched the game last night with a Gunner mate and he was calling Rosicky old. He's 28 for f*ck sake. Your club brings through youth, your club brings through lots of youth and I commend them for that but the result is that your players are much more experienced at a younger age (such as 19/20) than many players in the premiership are when they are 22/23. Just because you have a team of teenagers doesn't mean they are inexperienced it just means they are young. It's like a lot of things in life people mature and become experienced at different things at different rates and stages in there life. Just like your "kids" of 3 years ago had been playing football for a few years before we stuck 5 past them in 90 minutes
"Just like your "kids" of 3 years ago had been playing football for a few years before we stuck 5 past them in 90 minutes"
you think 18 year olds had been playing first team football for a few years is a fact!
Thick.
Keep embarrassing yourself... it's funny.
Dan - I've only commented on last night and the fact that your so-called "inexperienced team" (according to the press) had 500 more appearances between them that our starting XI.
Sorry, but the "inexperience" tag is not really valid for that Arsenal team any more.
Yes, it was valid back 2 1/2 years ago, and the press made a very good point of that at the time (anyone spot a theme regarding the press?).
You also seem to forget that the semi-final was over 2 legs..... You didn't make the most of the 1st leg at the Emirates and paid for it during the 2nd. Last night on the other hand was a single leg affair.
I'm sure that, had it been 2 legs we'd have had a stronger line-up last night and you'd have had a stronger line up for a 2nd leg.
And I don't think ScottishMancYids "kids" comment meant the teens, he meant the tag that the media gave them, even though they were balanced out with some very experienced players.
Why do people respond to Arsenal wums, just ignore their comments.
All this bitching makes for a very crap read.
Maybe Harry should give this a read...
http://www.breakingfootballnews.com/english-premier-league/carlo-ancelotti-zinedine-zidane-inspiration-behind-chelsea-attacking-flair/9944
JC
Here is what I sent to Sky (thanks to walkerboy for appearanes infor)
I really am sick to the back teeth of the constant negativity towards Tottehnam Hotspur FC from the Sky corporation as a whole and the extremely negative and one sided commentry in favour of Arsenal during last night's match in the Carling Cup at White Hart Lane. What surprised me most is that richard and Ian didn't have a bottle of champagne in the studio at full time and didn't start making na na na na na sounds at Glenn Hoddle.
It really is a disgrace and has been going on for years now. Remember when you did a goal flash years ago saying Darren Anderton scored an equaliser for Tottenham against Arsenal. No goal was scored and this served to get the hopes up of many Tottenham fans.
Again it is despicable. But then again I dont suppose that this complaint will be taken seriously and will just be laughed at by the endless amount of pre-programmed arsenal supporting robots in the Sky corporation. When Chris Skudder, Charlie Thomas, Rob Curling and Nick Powell read out scores against Tottenham and/or inform us of a defeat could you please tell them that it is damn right rude to do it with such a gleeful smirk on their faces.
You should do your research into the teams on the field of play before commenting about how bloody good arsenal's kids were etc etc
Here are the strating teams and their club appearances;
Arsenal
Fabianski - 37
Koscielny - 6
Djourou - 79
Eboue - 190
Gibbs - 32
Rosicky - 100
Nasri - 82
Denilson - 123
Wilshere - 7
Lansbury - 1
Vela - 53
Total - 710 appearance between them.
Tottenham
Pletikosa - Debut (not played club football for a year!)
Naughton - 4
Caulker - Debut
Bassong - 40
BAE - 104
Bentley - 60
Livermore - Debut
Sandro - Debut
Palacios - 61
Gio - 19
Pav - 66
Total club appearances: 260
So how exactly are Arsenal the "inexperienced"
Anyway I'm going to save this because I'll probably have cause to complain again in the near future about your conduct towards Totenham Hotspur FC. (I'll just have to change the competition name and opposing team)
Here's hoping you'll take this complaint into consideration but I'm sure I'll see snow covering Uluru (Ayres Rock, Australia in case you didn't know) sooner.
Regards
Tomtraubert
Doubt it'll do any good but I feel a bit better now.
All this shit with billy g and dan is doing my fucking head in. Fuck off back to your own blogs you insufferable cunts.