NLD: post-match thoughts and stuff
Wednesday, September 22, 2010 at 12:00PM Okay, so it’s the morning after, and I've stated countless times I have no intention of excusing the 4-1 loss, but there is no reason to perhaps add perspective to the result and try to understand it.
I know Arsenal fans are desperate to wipe clean the memory of the 5-1 and last seasons 2-1 which ended their season (deal with it Wenger) but let's get some perspective here. Had we won last night, the game would not have got a dvd release.
Selections and formations
Harry stated, a while back, that the game is fundamentally about the players. No matter the formation. 10% about the formation, 90% about the players on the pitch. To quote him:
"If you have the best ones and they do their jobs, then they can pretty much play any way you want them to"
So no shocker then that when you play Palacios in an offensive midfield position, Bentley on the wrong flank, Gio on the wrong flank, then stick in some debutants including Sandro - who, let's be fair, is not going to be that confident in the side fielded unlike say a side with the likes of Bale, Huddlestone, Modric and vdV surrounding him.
I don't blame Harry for playing the players he played. Rock and hard place. If he's not going to play key players, he has no choice but to play the fringe ones. To be honest, I didn't expect Wenger to select so many first teamers in his squad - and then play all of them. I guess he really wants to win something this season.
I stand by my pre-match belief that a NLD is exactly that and we should never be looking to field a non-competitive side. Fact is, the patched up ethic doesn't work for us. It's not so much to do with out of form players or even out of position players (although that has an influence). It's to do with the lack of an in-house top to bottom philosophy.
Philosophy you say?
Our first team is rather good. Our first team would have beaten the team Arsenal put out last night. I'm confident of that. More than confident. Arsenal's first team? Well, that would have been a full blown NLD, blood and thunder and silky skills. We got nothing of the sort last night. So why can Arsenal play a mixture of youth, fringe players and first teamers and look so comfortable against our side of not so many first teamers, put plenty of supposed quality and promising youth?
Well firstly, the supposed quality is either spent or inept. And the promising youth is just that, but not yet excelling. Simply put. Wenger, the canny s.o.b. and the culture he has instilled into their club means that from top to bottom they play a distinctive style. Players are signed and developed to fit into a style of play. Its all very specific, and although arguably, at the moment (at least in the past half-decade) its not proving to be successful in terms of silverware, they do produce very clean, crisp, technical football. They are still massive c**ts, blatantly, in terms of moaning/diving/non-acceptance of defeat - but what it does mean is that they can mix and match and not betray their philosophy of play. There appears to be no detrimental effect, although, under-strength Wenger sides have had their arses spanked before. There are limits. The hype is just that.
There is also no doubting we play with a swagger and style. We always have. It's also the culture of the club to play sweeping pulsating football. But what last night proved is that if you don’t play a spine of first team players, if you take key players out of the equation, it all falls apart. It's not so much sweeping, but more sleeping. Yes, Harry did not help matters what with players out of their natural positions. And some of the players did not help themselves (what is the point of David Bentley again?). There was no cohesion or togetherness out there from our lot. Disjointed the thought of the day.
Our players are player-dependent. The system, it works best when the key players are starting. If we miss key players, there is still enough about the collective, mental strength wise, to still pull it altogether. Far too many light-weights, in the head department, last night. Then again, this is just the one game, so I won't be looking to scape-goat. More on Harry and the players below.
I'm not suggesting an overhaul of the academy, re-introduction of the reserve team etc - although that would be fantastic in terms of long term plans. In the short term, if we're going avoid risking key players but still remain competitive, then for starters - let's have some consistency in formation and balance the team out so it can at least pretend to try and play like a full strength first team. This would mean, signing a particular ilk of player. It's not an over-night solution. And Harry - long term - might not have the inclination to work in this way. Levy - wise up and get on it. If anything, the academy really has to start pushing on at same point soon.
Quick-fire player reviews
Pletikosa - Not very convincing
Naughton - Struggled
Caulker - Played well, but clumsy needless penalty. Would want to see him involved in more games because there is defo something about him that would have me think he has a future
Bassong - Meh
Assou-Ekotto - Was fine, nothing more, but you try looking effective with Bentley up ahead of you
Gio - Had to be subbed. This kid must have something if you can do it at international level. Time Harry cut him same slack ON the pitch
Sandro - Debut, NLD, showed glimpses but can't be too critical, considering the surroundings
Livermore - Struggled, not quite ready, even for a lower-tier cup game
Palacios - He's a DM, not a very good one at the moment regarding form, so why start him in a more offensive position?
Bentley - Honestly mate, stick to setting your foot on fire and diving into in-door swimming pools
Pav - No service, is not the type of player to carve out something from nothing
Keane - He scored. Hit the woodwork. Didn't do too badly, but if we're comparing him to Keane of old, it's all a bit depressing. He has lost the mojo.
Lennon - Little room for movement, little effort when the ball was at his feet. Do we need to draft in a psychologist?
Kranjcar - Out of position
As for the swamp things?
Plenty of possession, movement and passing. Didn't create that much though, did they? Two penalties won them the match, even with our complete incompetence to resemble a competitive side, it flattered them. I know, that's subjective. I wonder if Wenger will play a full strength side if he faced Chelsea in the next round? Probably beat them, innit, what with them being wonder-kid toddlers with mental matrix skillabilities. Gooners are really milking this, bless 'em. I guess they have to take what's handed to them on a plate and make the very most of it. At least they care enough to gloat. Take the bragging rights - no argument - but don't kid (lol) yourselves. It's not half as impressive as you'd like it to be. But then, you know that.
Conclusion
Harry got it wrong. It happens. Did he honestly think Wenger would play the under 11's? Whatever it was he tried to do failed, epically. It's frustrating that, say the likes of Gio who hardly gets a chance, gets one but is played out of position. Bentley, who you'd hope would want to change his application to something that doesn't involve him pouncing around like a really crap David Beckham impersonator, failed to ignite any hope of redemption. I'll stop now, I did say - no scapegoats.
If he can learn something from this, it's some players really do need to be gone in Jan and others need to be developed and used effectively. It's a shake of the head from me that Harry didn't follow his own belief about playing players where they play best.
Even so, what with all the post-match reflection this morning, the game changed on the first penalty decision. The chances created prior to that (our chances) were better. So, in the grand scheme of things…don't read too much in it. It sucks losing to them, its never acceptable to lose in a dejectable manner, but that's football.
Roll on Saturday.
Reader Comments (181)
Took the family along for a treat and the little ones first NLD.
200 of the realm to watch a reserve game. Category B fixture? Fuck off. Should have been 20quid for adults a tenner for kids, even that would have felt like a rip-off after 100minutes of that rubbish.
Take David Bentley (I'll say no more, the old ones are the best aren't they, )- when he stepped up to take the free kick I honestly thought "this is it". Told my boy watch this- he is going to score, he trains and practises for these moments. Right now this is what his season is about.
What sort of sorry ass free kick was that? Stand up the Deluded Spurs Fan!!
Do we honestly pay him thousands of pounds every week?? Him and Palacios were both shocking and I can't see either of them still playing for Spurs past the next two transfer windows.
Bring on West Ham and FC Twente. The next 8 days can only get better.
As for the atmosphere, my five year old asked me "Where are all the good players?" at half time. I think 33'000 people were thinking the same thing.
And well done Harry for treating a NLD in a cup with the respect it does not deserve.
Wembley in the CL final is a pipe dream. Wembley in the Carling final is always a possibility. Well was.
If come May we are at Wembley then I will say it now, Harry Redknapp you are a genius and possibly a God.
Fingers crossed eh!
I want to thank Spurs for being so safety conscious last night. It shows the sheer professionalism of the staff at WHL to care so much for the safety of others that they ran a Fire Drill with 15 minutes left in the match.
Almunia
Sagna
Squillaci
Clichy
Vermaelen
Song
Fabregas
Diaby
Van Persie
Bentner
None of these started last night and only 1 played for 20 minutes. The bottom line is that our kids have vast experience to go with their superior fitness and technique. Your kids looked like fish out of water and could only contribute fouls. 3 of our goals came from careless fouls. I couldn't believe that a 19 year old professional football player, was getting cramp CRAMP!! FFS!,or indeed that his own players didn't help him and it took an Arsenal player stepping in to help. Dont your players do any fitness training? Also how much did you pay for Benley again? I should know because we got half of it and it more or less paid for Nasri. Funny old world eh.
West Ham---broke no players
Southhampton administration and relegation
Portsmouth administration and relegation
Some people call that a trend. Harry will spend all your cash ,drop u down the league and then take the England job.
When he does you can follow him on Twitcher!
... and if you read the whole article Dan (appreciate your ADH may effect the ability to do that) then spooky has praised your youth set up and Wenger! Just because they're teenagers doesnt mean there not starting 11...wasn't Cesc starting for you when he was about 8???
after last match's pathetic show of support from spurs fans if they ever talk about atmosphere , their tiny asses are needed to b used as a tunnel for a trans - siberian rail to pass by or may b anyone train from france will work......
I think you're being a bit harsh on Bentley, what do you expect from him when he's playing his first game since recovering from his injury? You seem to forget last season when he was drafted in on the right after Lennon's injury? He was actually pretty good.
A lot is said about him, but I personally am still not willing to write him off. He has the best right foot of any in our team, in my (humble) opinion.
What are you talking about Dan??? Are you trying to say those players were inexperienced in Jan 08? Cesc, Walcott, Bentner etc. They were 1st team choices then. You are talking out of your hole.
Also have too laugh at the whole Redknapp will make you bankrupt crap! Didn't realise he had a joint company account with Daniel Levy!! Levy is shrewdest chairman in the League not like the jokers that ran West Ham, Pompy and Saints.
You think Walcott was a starter over Hleb at 18?
You think Bendtner was a starter over Adebayor and RVP at 19?
I think I know my team better than you do.
Heck Bendtner is 3rd choice striker now and you think he was a starter 3 years ago.
All the inexperienced bullsh!t you're all talking about your team now, is the same we used 3 years ago, except 3 years ago we actually had a valid case with 7 teenagers.
dan another thing...who cares if our squad cost more...milner cost £26million, fabregas was free....whos better?we had missing and are better than the players that played:
Gomes
Cudicini
Kaboul
Corluka
Hutton
Walker
King
Gallas
Dawson
Woodgate
Bale
Lennon (sub)
Huddlestone
Jenas
O'Hara
Modric
van der Vaart
Kranjcar
Crouch
Defoe
the thing is 20 players from a 25 man squad.
Didnt think i would have to bother Dan but last night we were missing Gomes, Cudicini, Corluka, Hutton, King, Dawson, Gallas, Woodgate, Kaboul, Bale, Modric, Van der Vaart, Huddlestone, Jenas, Defoe and Crouch. Only player(s) who started last night who is considered first X1 is BAE, Wilson at a push. Water off a ducks back mate but enjoy it!
Fuck me I'm bored stupid with Dan and Billy G. What a pair of twats. Dan is stultifyingly tedious in his persistence and Billy G has the IQ of an amoeba.
Spooky, I all know we like a bit of banter on here. But can't we ban them?
The only first XI player that started last night for us was Koscielny. Deal with that.
..Billy G you can ask your biology teacher what a Amoeba is this afternoon...
KC = Bentley's mum.
Only Bentleys mum would see any good in this faker! He should never wear the shirt again until he - atleast - gets rid of that ugly hairstyle.
Its his choice, bald head and no fancy stuff, or West ham.
Dan you're right i must think i imagined Nasri and Denilson playing for you last year. And Wilshere starting 4 games thsi year...not to mention when the game was won Arshavin, Chamakh and Rosicky....tit
Ha ha, "bald head/no fancy stuff or Wet Spam".... And SO true..!!
So when we play 7 teenagers and lose 5-1 it counts but when you play 1 teenager and a team made up of 16m Palacios, 16m Bentley, 16m Pav, (all 3 are higher than our biggest transfer ever btw) 8m Bassong, 7m Sandro, 7m Gio it doesn't count?!
Ban me, for what? I've only stated the truth amongst amidst of deluded lies on your part.
Some guy said I've distorted facts then never said what they were when I asked.
Some guy said our teenagers 3 years ago weren't teenagers because now they're starters.
Another guy said Keane hit the post which was a great chance but failed to state that the flag was up and the chance wasn't even a chance.
The truth is that we both player reserves players and a few youngsters;
We dominated you for the entire first half and found it difficult to break through your 9 man defence, the same tactics that 'Arry moans about teams doing when they do it to you.
You couldn't deal with our ability so you spent the first half hacking us down to stop attacks.
Your only chances came from hoofs out of the back leading to long range efforts.
The only chances you had were the Bentley header and the keane off the line (both occured when you were 3-1 down)
We had a goal wrongfully disallowed.
You had a goal wrongfully allowed.
We completeled over 300 more passes than you, had twice the number of shots.
Wilshere alone had more passes than Palacios, Sandro and Livermore combined.
4-1 was a fair result even if it took 2 hrs to achieve. Just as 5-1 was a fair result 3 years ago against 7 teenagers.
"Dan you're right i must think i imagined Nasri and Denilson playing for you last year. And Wilshere starting 4 games thsi year...not to mention when the game was won Arshavin, Chamakh and Rosicky....tit"
So wait, Palacios, BAE, Lennon, keane, bentley, Bassong, Pav all count too then.
billy G:
Hmm, didn't you get beat by Wigan last season? Didn't we beat Young Boys at home? Didn't we beat your tin-pot club last season 2-1? Hmm....short memory "my friend".
..and I was at the game and 4500k "fans" made such little noise, and that's considering you took a big chunk of the Park Lane end where most of the noise is generated.
el Cuntos!
We're talking about best 11's. Only Koscielny would start for us if everyone was fit and we were playing the Champions league final was today. otherwise, yes, Rosicky, Nasri, Denilson etc are all first team squad members just like the 6/7 of yours are.
Dan, give it a rest will ya! It's getting boring now so please change the tune. That's a good boy...
Truth hurts Terry?
he's a bit special terry, don't be mean!!
Dan, so Wilshere hasn't started 4/5 games this season and made a sub appearance for the 5th? [I know he is young and not that experienced, but he seems to be first team to me. Bloody quality as well, from an England perspective he seems pretty tasty]. Rosicky has appeared in every game so he's in the rotation (like Palacios for us). Nasri has 2 starts (was he injured?). Only Palacios and Assou-Ekotto have had more than 1 start for us this season. The list of decent players Arsenal didn't play is slightly shorter than the list of decent players spurs didn't play. You played a more experienced side (see above for total first team appearances ~760 vs ~250), played better football and won the game. Well done. Stop trolling on our message board spouting crap. The age argument is difficult too, as by that reckoning putting in Fabregas over Rosicky would make you a younger side. For all the arguments about experience the difference from where I was sitting was Wilshere, who was fantastic, and for all the rivalry between our teams I admire Wenger's ability to bring top quality kids through. Every Arsenal player out there looked technically great on the ball, just needed a bit more pace, power, strength and direction as a team. Gallasisaspy, thanks for that list, see above for the list twice as long of spurs players who didn't start.
Wilshere has started because Cesc missed the first 2 weeks due to playing in the world cup finals then Nasri missed a month with a knee op then Diaby's leg got hacked by bolton. Denilson has been injured since April and made his first start since then last night.
We've had no Midfielders so Wilshere and Rosicky have had to start. SIMPLE.
In regards to your appearances bull facts. You have Pletikosa having 0 appearances but the guy is 31 and has been a pro for 13 years and has 80+ international caps. Slight flaw in your stats.
Oh and someone else posted this somewhere else, if you were unfortunate enough to have to watch via sky sports and want to complain about the most one sided commentary I have personally ever heard this is the link.
http://www.skysports.com/contactus/0,20299,,00.html
..Dan Denilson and Nasri started???
Commentary was one sided because the game was one sided. SIMPLE.
When you spend the whole game with 10 men behind the ball, what do you want the comms to say?
cock-grill
Palacios and Pav started? That's 32m worth of apparently elite 3rd string talent right there.
Thats about what our starting 11 cost.
Dan you are mugging it mate. Shift on. You scored 2 pens in extra time. You haven't gone away to Barca and won ffs. Jesus, didn't know you gooners were this whiny for some acceptance.
Please do not feed the animals! Ignore them and they will go back to playing with themselves...
Just like when you won 5-1 against 7 teenagers isn't it. potkettleblack.
Just pointing out the hypocrisy.
Dan.... this is getting boring, read my posts i stated Wilson is boardline 1st teamer, Pav is 3rd choice striker just as you claim Bentdner was when we beat you 5-1. Ok cost a fair bit but we have paid stupid prices for fairly average players over the last few years.
This conversation is getting petty... we both had weakend teams out, you were much better 1st half, even Wengers admitted we did well 2nd half, you won by one dodgy pen (as Nasri admitted), one stone wall and a fourth when we tried to push forward. Congratulations i can see big big things for Arsenal this year...maybe a Wednesday night semi final in Scunthorpe.
I agree Palacios is borderline but so is Rosicky and Denilson. Neither are starters in any shape or form when everyone is fit just as only BAE is for you fromlast night.
My point all along was that 3 years ago, we played 7 teenagers against your best 11 and got spanked at your ground but you all claim we didn't play any youngsters because they are all first teamers now even though they weren't at the time. But now you're all saying your team were inexperienced last night when the truth is they weren't, you had 1 teenagers even close to the same age as the 7 we had 3 years but apparently that's a valid excuse.
Just pointing out the hypocrisy.
"In regards to your appearances bull facts. You have Pletikosa having 0 appearances but the guy is 31 and has been a pro for 13 years and has 80+ international caps. Slight flaw in your stats."
They were my facts, and were far from being bull.
If you read the bit above my stats (and clearly you didn't), I had pointed out that, with the exception of Koscielny, Wilshere & Lansbury, your team were well used to the "Arsenal way" of playing football. The appearance numbers I gave were based on appearances at current club.
Yes, Pletikosa has 81 international caps, but he's also not played a club game in over a year and is our THIRD choice keeper. He will only play again for us in the FA Cup, barring further injuries to Gomes/Cudicini.
Now, if we were to field a similar team in the Carling & FA Cup over the next 4 years, yes, they'd be more experienced and would be at the level Arsenal seemingly were last night. That's where Wenger's rotation policy for domestic cups is now starting to pay dividends. The basic fact is that last night, the spine of the Gooners had 50+ appearances each behind them. It was natural for them to adapt to tactics etc.
Regardless of how many teenagers you had in the starting 11, most were not new to the experience of playing in this kind of game. That's where Arsene's kiddie grooming has paid off.
Yes, Sandro has a cap for Brazil, but he's adapting to a new country & league - it's a bit like when you first signed Henry. No-one expects him to be ruling our midfield from the off.
When all is said and done, the Goon fans will gloat until Burnley knock them out in the next round.
Let them have their 5 mins of fun - there are only 2 important results between Arsenal and Spurs, and they are in the Premier League!
Dan. To sum it up, doesn't matter how you argue your point across. The result is a bitch for us. But it's not - bragging rights aside - monumental or telling in any form other than - your 'reserves' won the day.
Why is Dan on here??? Why hasn't he devoted his day to the gooner boards???
So sad that this is all it means to win to him.
Dan: fine, so Denilson and Nasri are first team then rather than Wilshere. You could argue the same thing about Palacios playing for us with Modric/defoe injured. I agree about Pletikosa but it was his debut and he hasn't played cup football for a year: not inexperienced but out of practice and never played with those players before. Its irrelevant anyway, the team Arsenal put out was more experienced than the spurs side, there is no argument. Not hugely more experienced and far from a first team, but more experienced, and as I said, they played much better football and won the game. Whats pissing people off is the media insistence that Arsenal played 'kids' and spurs didn't. If you want to do ages: Arsenal average age 23, Spurs average age, 24, which is pretty much exactly the difference made by 31 year old Pletikosa vs Fabianski. What is your problem?
Your reserves are better as a combnied unit...end of..........Soooooooooo let's not fuck it up a West Ham hey ;)
I 100% agree spooky.
My effort has to only point out the hypocrisy of your reactions 3 years ago and ever since. A hypocrisy nobody here has admitted to despite the facts to support it and I reckon will never admit to.
Just imagine if you'd turned up with last nights team to our ground against our strongest 11 (And that doesn't even do the 7 teenagers we played that night justice) and lost 5-1. You all would have said we played a reserve team against your best team, who cares!
Well you didn't even play youngsters last night (like we did 3 years ago), you were at home (unlike us 3 years ago) and we played our reserves (unlike you 3 years ago) yet last night doesn't count but 3 years ago did according to you.
I couldn't care less about last night, the media's reaction today blah blah blah.
Im talking about 3 years ago. The exact excuses you're all using are what we used 3 years ago except none of your excuses are any where near as valid as our from back then.
Last night meant nothing.
Let it go then!!!!!!!
Who gives a flying toss about three years ago?!
If that's all you're over here to whinge about, then may I suggest you go back to school.....
Sorry we'll have to agree to disagree Sagna, Gallas, Hleb, Cesc (18min sub), Silva started 3 years ago. Diaby, Walcott and Denilson i admit were young players but i would be interested to see how many appearance they made for you before that game. Adebayor and Eduardo (when he was good!) came on with 30 mins to go? FACT!
Already have, just making sure you all realise the truth of 3 years ago because you all still seem to believe the bullshit you talk from that night.
..apologies for encouraging him again
So wait, 7 teenagers that play against your best 11 away from home doesn't count but you playing reserves against our reserves does?
See, you all still believe the bull you say.
It's brilliant but deluded cock-grill.