Stand up if you like a song
Wednesday, September 16, 2009 at 8:07PM In response to a couple of emails I’ve received, let me clarify once more that I do not condone racist or homophobic chanting.
If you and your friends bullied and victimised someone in the street, whether it’s racial slurs or digs related about sexuality it would not be deemed anywhere near socially acceptable. If a complaint was made you’d probably be arrested and prosecuted, and deservedly so.
But where would you draw the line? If you and your mates picked on someone for being fat and sang songs about pie eating or laughed out loud at somebody’s dodgy haircut... is that worthy of police time? Probably. If it was all in jest, it would be ignored or laughed off. But gangs don’t necessarily go around picking on people in quite this way. Can’t remember ever seeing a group of hooded teenagers singing you’re gonna die in a minute to a pensioner crossing the road. Victimisation is quite obviously evident in every walk of life. And a person could complain about whatever to the police about their troublesome neighbour if they suffered a continuous relentless verbal onslaught.
Football is (was – can you feel it change with every passing season?) a different animal altogether. It has a pantomime type quality about itself with deeply religious and tribal undertones. It might be perceived more and more as a family day out, but it’s a working class game. Was. Any many hold onto the past which basked in unbridled passion and loyalty, on and off the pitch. A man could be a man at a football game. Get drunk, mug himself off, sing songs with his mates. Even kiss and hug them if the goal was worthy of it. Absolute unrivalled expression all from watching a ball being kicked about. It’s a beautiful emotional game. And the way you behave in a football ground is nothing like walking down the street or going shopping in Tescos.
The terraces and stands are also full of comedians. Thousands of them. Chants and songs range from the simplistic to the insightful, sharp and brilliant and many of them birthed in the pubs pre-game or in the midst of the game. It’s the code that exists, whether its fans screaming at fans or fans screaming at players. Within those 90 minutes of play you have your fun. Everybody knows that even if it feels like a matter of life and death, it’s only a game (cliché overdose, sorry).
Racism isn’t acceptable. And from personal experience, it’s uncommon. Although there is plenty of casual racism (although it’s debatable its casual, as something is either racist or its not). By casual racism I’m referring to calling Arsenal fans pikeys or making jokes about West Ham being full of Indian takeaways or washing elephants. Its bottom of the barrel stuff and the majority sing far better songs than stooping to this type of boring level. And obviously, there’s the term ‘yid’. Anything stronger than that you’ll likely to be arrested/ejected and banned. Which is fine in my book and probably yours.
As for homophobia, well this is quite obviously a massive issue within football. How many top players have come out? Can’t think of many, if any. Likelihood, statistically, is that there are several homosexuals within the game. And considering the image that football has from a fans perspective, it’s an obvious target by the men on the stands. Again, we can do without a lot of it. The point here is that people, generally heterosexual men, do like a joke about a gay. It’s juvenile. So if you’re going to joke about it in the pub, you’re likely to do the same at a football game – especially with the lads together vibe and the over the top heterosexuality and plastic hooligan vibe some adopt. Brighton fans are probably bored of hearing ‘Does your boyfriend know you're here?’ and yet everyone laughs at that chant. But then, that’s possibly deserving of the casual tag, no? There’s plenty more that leaves a bad taste in the mouth (ooh, oh stop it...is that joke bad taste?).
Ok, so where am I going with all this?
One on one, in the street, if you abuse someone about their sexuality, you’re likely to get done for it much the same if there’s a racist element to the abuse. Any abuse really is unacceptable. But if it’s name calling the police, if called, are more likely to defuse the situation and calm things down. If it’s ongoing it will be investigated.
In a football ground, by virtue of the culture of the game and its fans, some things are acceptable without really being socially acceptable if sang outside the ground on a normal day. Once upon a time, some fairly Neanderthal stuff was sang, but thankfully it’s no longer the 1970s and 1980s. But as noted, it’s rare to ever hear opposing fans hiss or sing songs about Auschwitz. If ever. And as for singing and chanting at players, this is as common as buying a match day programme or taking a sneaky cigarette break in the cubicles.
We take the piss. The players just get on with it. Some of them, their reply is to score and celebrate and slide in front of the away fans in a show of defiance. Others will snare at the opposing fans when the ref isn’t looking, and wind them up. If you’re earning £50K + per week, then don’t be a pussy about it. You might not like it, but everyone gets it in the neck. And most players are confident and arrogant and simply don’t care, and even love it.
And most of the time it’s tongue-in-cheek. But football is still littered with personal jokes about not being the father of your son or what your wife likes in bed. It’s usually stuff that we all know and we all like to laugh at. Why give them an easy ride? It’s tradition to sing.
When does it over-step the mark?
I guess it becomes embarrassing for many when Munich and Hillsborough are brought into the equation. Or wishing people dead, hanging from a tree or being shot or dying from a brain tumour. I’ve heard some God awful stuff at football games, from home and away fans. Footballs fans are like the Borg Collective with a demented sense of humour, all as one, exerting their power. Be it a verbal one. And in unison. There’s an air of the untouchable about it. But sometimes fans are plucked out of the stands for it. Whether it’s because of a complaint or the police being pro-active, supporting the law and club policy.
I do not condone the Sol Sol song. It’s crude. Have no intention to re-visit the argument as to whether it’s racist or not. The point that’s argued about the remaining content is obvious to all. And why it’s sang is also obvious to most. And it’s a shame that we waste our time singing this to him (be it again a minority). But it serves its purpose to get back at him and it obviously works because he mostly always struggle to come to terms with the level of noise aimed towards him. It’s relevant to state that before he had his half-time troubles in the Arsenal v West Ham game, the abuse he got was the usual type of abuse a player gets. No ambiguous or obvious undertones other than a disliking for the man.
Then he made it all an issue which saw the start of the Tottenham 16 story. He’s always tried to play the race card. He first did this years ago after (I think) after his first visit to WHL after leaving. Nobody ever took any notice of this pathetic attempt.
I also believe that the reason he pushed for prosecution on the Tottenham 16 was not so much because of what was being sang but the fact that many Spurs fans are so insistent in abusing him (note that he didn’t want anyone charged with calling him a c**nt). He can’t not expect abuse considering he’s a liar and a Judas. Some Spurs fans have moved on. Others want to remind him because he strikes them as a man who still believes he did nothing wrong. Why give him an easy day out? But still – if the police want to set an example and been seen to stamp out homophobic chanting then do so – but don’t do it as part of a witch-hunt.
Anyway, I find him and everything about him tedious. Much like many other players who get similar types of abuse. The difference is, they don’t go crying to the police. Most understand and take it on the chin.
You can get away with a lot when 10,000 people are singing the same song. And 98% of the time, it’s no less offensive than watching a stand-up comedian take the piss out of whatever, whomever.
I’m not saying, cross the line, it’s ok because it’s a football match. But if someone high up in the police force is going to knee-jerk again just because a footballer with a fragile ego complains about being victimised then best to make sure that it warrants the time and effort of the CPS and the court room and that there is actual evidence of abuse that is way beyond the normality of terrace banter.
Reader Comments (45)
Good article. Policing the terraces with regards to racism is done at most games and is done well. Campbell complained because he couldn't stand listening to Spurs fans abuse him - regardless of what was being said or sang. If every player did that we'd be gagged going into grounds.
What an extremely well written and thought out piece this is! Well said Spooky - absolutely spot on!
Racism is unacceptable and its reported and acted on at all clubs. Not to say there are not one or two northern clubs (and Midlands too) where I've seen kids and adults make monkey chants at opposing fans, outside the ground. Police also acted on the Ade Elephant song last season at WHL, because of complaints. Its such a fine line and very difficult to act on other singing/chanting. Like Yid Army - which is ok when we sing it but not ok if a rival fan screams out 'You fucking yids'. I think the police and clubs act on complaints and CCTV. I cant think of any player going after a set of fans for abuse. Not in a court of law.
Someone will probably prove me wrong on this.
Excellent blog post mate. We have a voice, Its not always the most intelligent and sometimes its raw and brutal, but where else would 'society' like men to let off some steam? Dont stand for any of the racist shit or the gay slating and I'll bring up my boys in the right fashion, but calling a player a wanker? Nothing at all wrong with that. Singing a song about him being a waste of money? Nothing wrong. The vast majority know where the line is drawn and the jokes that do cross the line are bad taste but not worthy of court appearances. The ones that are, there's no debating. The Spurs sixteen, four of them pleaded guilty so you could say thats the only good thing that happened that it will teach certain fans not to sing certain songs. Shame the media and police agenda overshadowed it all with so much bullshit printed in the press.
Remember when Pompey played at the Lane and Spurs fans hummed the Sol Sol song? Now THATS football terrace humour. Its was fucking genius!
I do agree with you Spooky but what if Ade complained about the Elephant song and 16 or fans were prosecuted for it? Is it any different to the Sol Campbell prosecution? If the player feels that its out of order? Cantona once kicked a fan for abusing him. Can't see that working for anyone these days but if its something that the player is affected by then its in their rights to complain.
Not defending Judas, but who's to say he wasn't deeply upset with the constant badgering concerning his sexuality? If a stand has to be made against this type of chanting then someone has to complain.
8182 - That's fair enough, but in this case it was bloated and over zealous the way the police went about their business, especially as the homophobia that Ian Trow and son were accused of was thrown out of court in minutes in the re-trial - which means this only served a purpose initially when the press made all 16 out to be criminals, guilty as charged.
There was no real case here. Not that any level of homophobic chanting is ok.
Agree that it's a fine line. Not exactly sure where it is, but wherever it is, the Sol song crossed it.
To be fair to him, and I don't see why I should but hey!, the police acted not on his say so but on complaints received from the Portsmouth fans. They are duty bound to investigate any such complaint. Same as at man City on Saturday.
The problem for me is why this song and Spurs fans were prosecuted when other teams have equally abusive songs, many of which are sung at us, like the gas noises.
If we want to get at him, and I do, remember the first game when he returned to the Lane. there was all this stuff abot turning backs and waving white handkerchiefs, as they do in Spain, but when it came to it, he was met with a wall of noise for 90 minutes, the like of which I have never heard in the 40 years I've been watching football. He hates it, certainly never comes within 10 yards of the touchline. That's one way of getting through.
I know I'm in a minority of one amongst Spurs fans when I think the abuse of Campbell has gone on way too long. People need to put the situation in context and cast their minds back to the time in question. Campbell was undoubtedly one of the finest defenders of our time. Unfortunately for us and him he could see no future staying with Spurs and at that time - after a succession of lame managers (George Graham ffs) and the austerity of the Sugar years he was right to believe that his desire to win trophies was not going to be fulfilled at Spurs. Luckilly for us, times have changed! The fact that Campbell left for Arse was a major irritation ( justified from his professional point of view when he improved the Arse to become invincible league champions...) but that he saw out his contract was the most we can expect from a pro footballer in the modern game. I know I'll get slated for this but really it is time to just let it go and move on. For sake of everyone's sanity.
Dont think it was the Pompey complaints. They came later. It was all Sol.
Well articulated, another good piece. I am concerned by some of the verbage being used. I'd rather not consistently have some seemingly drunken lout swearing and being agressive every 5 seconds in front of me or some poor bloke taking his kids to watch the Spurs. As Arry pointed out, why can't some people just watch the game without turning it into some kind of bloody riot?
With respect to a good song, some are just amazing - the effect of "Oh when the Spurs" always gets me out in goosebumps, much as "you'll never walk alone" rouses the piddle fans I 've been told. Some are clever "You can stick...coz we've got Ledley", some are old fashioned support "Spurs are on their way to Wembley", but you're right about the 'Sol Sol song' utterly banal and idiotic - it's this stuff that needs to be stamped out, even if simply for being a sh*t song.
By all means, boo a member of the opposition, or shout out a witty comment, but not at the cost of your own self respect.
Tim, Sol's a c*nt. We know it. He knows it. But we don;t have to let him forget it. lt's only football, and it's divine to forgive etc but there's nowt wrong with making him remember we do. It's the manner in which it has escalated and blown out of all proportion that is fundamentally wrong here. The chant and the prosecution and the trial and the media reports and us having to debate this, is one long chain of unecessary. There are and were bigger and cleverer ways of doing this. If we evr meet Notts County in the cups, I hope to hear some of them.
You're trying to excuse the inexcusable by references to terrace and working class, all boys together
culture.
It reduces all supporters to the lowest level and sets a tone that it is difficult for youngsters not to follow. If you don't join in with the largely tedious, repetetive and crude banter your'e dismissed as a miserable sod with no sense of humour and it gives less 'juvenile' supporters who love the game nowhere to go.
I certainly wouldn't miss the alledged humour of the terraces if it allowed me to enjoy the actual match. Most of it is offensive and distracting.
Some claim that you can only understand what happens at a match if you are there but some people spend so much time chanting , standing up if they hate Arsenal or whatever, that all they know about the game is what their mates thought about the referee and who scored.The loudest , crudest voice sets the level.
The beautiful game is reduced to a bare outline and viewed through a partisan and distorting lens which makes the reason we lost against Man. Utd. a biased ref. rather than being beaten by a team that played better on the day
I think that supporters should get behind their own team and raise the roof for them not indulge in abusive hostility towards our opponents.
As far as Cambell is concerned he was certainly wrong but please lets move on.
"Sol, Sol, it's not because you're gay;
-Not racist in any way;
Get over yourself;
There's no witch-hunt;
It's because you're a massive c*nt!"
I think the winding up of players is to get them to under-perform during the game therefore giving your team an advantage! No one wants an ex player turning up and having a blinder against you, you want them to have a stinker and loose, especially if they are class players. Any average player who has left the Lane and returned has always had a mediocre reception. Its always the class players who leave and return who get real shit! Sheringham, Campbell, Berbatov and Carrick etc. They get shit cos, A, they are class players who you want to do badly when they return. B, they prob left for a bigger club which leaves a bad taste in the mouth. C, Putting them off their game gives you a big advantage!
I thinks is all very simple and Alpha male like. Good article, a lot covered.
I also think a lot of derogatory terms have lost their real meaning or original potency (that's not to say there inoffensive). Take the term Gay for instance, My friends and I will call each other it all the time when together. Its not meant to offend Homosexuals and I also don't give a shit if it does but its just a harmless term to have a dig at a mate. Nothing more nothing less.
You do have to draw the line at Racism tho, in my ten years at the Lane I have heard few racism chants. Campbell's songs are just homophobic, as for the Adebayor song, is that Racist?? or just funny? or just plain racist?
I used to go to a few Brighton games and the reply to the does your boyfriend chant was 'yes he's over there with you', I always found the Brighton fans very amusing with their singing, I can remember going to Millwall and they all used to sing 'We're going to get our fucking heads kicked in' classic
As for all the people whining about fans shouting abuse, get real, your not at the cinema! Its a working class game watched by working class people. Fans always have and always will vent frustrations etc! get you and your kids in the family end, then if someone is being offensive draw attention to it by speaking to a steward. There is no excuse to do that in the family area if its by individuals. As for 2 or 3 stands chanting offensive songs, well there is nothing you can do about that.
Maybe all this grief is why he moved to a League 2 club with no money - oh, wait a minute...
"The point here is that people, generally heterosexual men, do like a joke about a gay. It’s juvenile."
"and yet everyone laughs at that chant."
Speak for yourself. I find it incredibly offensive. Perhaps you'd benefit from thinking this issue through a little more closely before you justify homophobia and prejudice on a massive scale. It is absolutely as bad as racism.
"A gay"... seriously?
Your sir, are a hyprocrit, and also most likely a simpleton.
IMHO - give them a good booing - tis all. Chants, especially extremely humorous ones, should be reserved for the whole team, or opposition fans: good ones will even make the targets smile.
Unless it's "who ate all the pies" - lambast the cheeks of those fatty footy footballers :-D
Pink+Claret+Blue
Missing the oh so subtle point are you?
It's offensive to scream abuse about death and HIV. It's embarrassing when people sing about taking it up the arse and chanting gayboy gayboy. Considering the chances are some of the people in the stands supporting Spurs and laughing at the banter are probably homosexual themselves. I'm not justifying homophobia. I'm simply stating that if you take football and the people that go to football - there's this persona of masculinity that is pushed into everyone's face. Please do not pretend you don't know what I'm talking about.
Key word was generally. Maybe I should have made it a little bit more clear I was referring to football grounds, but then the article is about football so I expect most can do the math without instructions.
Is it a stereotype I'm embracing here? Yes. Not everyone thinks its funny to laugh at this type of thing. And my 'laugh about a gay' comment was written like that on purpose to illustrate how demeaning it actually is. I should have used italics there I guess.
Subjective whether it's as bad as racism though isn't it? Considering the history associated with race issues, that's far more serious and offensive. When heterosexual blokes in groups are being loud but in no way intimidating is it hetrophobia for people to assume they must all be lager louts or hooligans? They could be all excited about their forthcoming chess club for all you know.
Spooky, can you explain what you meant by the quoted bit Pink posted? Not that I'm starting trouble guv.
Killjoy - this?
"The point here is that people, generally heterosexual men, do like a joke about a gay. It’s juvenile."
Someone above mentioned Alpha Male. Blokes at football grounds perpetuate this hard man persona till their blue in the face. And probably through insecurities and because it's expected of them, they will have a dig at a player or opposing fans.
It's all mostly very subtle. I think with Campbell we sadly hear the crude stuff. But otherwise it's subtle - that doesn't make it ok. But its like when a player on the pitch does something that the fans then react to with wolf whistling and plenty of ooh's. It's all a bit camp, no? That's all I meant.
You're trying to excuse the inexcusable by references to terrace and working class, all boys together
culture.
> Nope. I'm saying it’s a problem that exists in the game and its because so many are grouped together that its almost deemed to be acceptable. And in some instances, although it's borderline, its just about acceptable because the majority of the times its done so as a joke rather than something deeply personal. We laugh and joke about Ashley Cole. With Campbell it’s a little more vicious and therefore at times creeping past that thin line.
It reduces all supporters to the lowest level and sets a tone that it is difficult for youngsters not to follow. If you don't join in with the largely tedious, repetetive and crude banter you're dismissed as a miserable sod with no sense of humour and it gives less 'juvenile' supporters who love the game nowhere to go.
> Again, perhaps I should have been far more clear about what is my opinion and what was a generalisation (although IMO a generalisation that is pretty much based on going to games and seeing it week in and week out). If you don't join in, I don't think you're singled out. At times at Spurs some people sing a song or scream a chant and others around them cringe or laugh with a statement that reads 'I can't believe he just said that'. It's a minority that do the crude stuff. The majority lift their arms into the air and sing slowly to the tune of 'When the Spurs go marching in'.
I certainly wouldn't miss the alledged humour of the terraces if it allowed me to enjoy the actual match. Most of it is offensive and distracting.
> Come on. There are moments of brilliance on the terraces. Whether its fans method acting in the stands as they mimic the opposing fans deluded excitement or a chorus of a song that makes you laugh out loud. Its part and parcel of the game. It just is. And yes there are elements that need to disappear forever. I hate that Elephant song. I don’t see it as being funny at all and it grates me that Spurs fans think they'll be clever for it. There are plenty of examples where you just have appreciate the very simplistic yet biting humour.
Liverpool fans: We wont it 5 times, we won it 5 times, in Istanbul, we won it five times
Utd fans: We won it three times, we won it three times, without killing anyone, we wont it three times
Bad taste? Hell yeah. But fuck me, if you can't laugh at the audacity of it.
Some claim that you can only understand what happens at a match if you are there but some people spend so much time chanting , standing up if they hate Arsenal or whatever, that all they know about the game is what their mates thought about the referee and who scored. The loudest , crudest voice sets the level.
> Not sure I agree. There's plenty of mentalists for sure. But personally I find the people who run off to the loo every 10 minutes or disappear inside for a beer with 10 minutes to go to half-time far more annoying.
The beautiful game is reduced to a bare outline and viewed through a partisan and distorting lens which makes the reason we lost against Man. Utd. a biased ref. rather than being beaten by a team that played better on the day
I think that supporters should get behind their own team and raise the roof for them not indulge in abusive hostility towards our opponents.
> For the most part, the fans DO sing for the team. I think, personally, we don't sing enough songs about certain players and rather than having various songs about Ade, Arsenal and Campbell we should be thinking more about getting behind the players with their own personal theme music - as sang by the Park Lane and friends. Don't be ignoring that we raise the roof countless of times. You know what I'm talking about. You've been there when WHL is rocking and you can see the away fans sitting in the corner thinking: wow. When we're on fire, we're on fire. Personal piss-taking of opposition players happens as a side-show mostly.
As far as Campbell is concerned he was certainly wrong but please lets move on.
> Agreed.
Some valid points in the above, I went to see Dave Gorman the other day (an intelligent chap who does not fulfil many sterotypes (other than maths nerd) but he is sufficiently astute and intelligent to offer the following statement:
words on their own are meaningless, it is context that gives it meaning.
This on it's own is quite insightful (albeit obvious to an extent), however to further elaborate, the problem with context is that it can be subjective.
I have worked in an office in the past where the alpha male reverts to the use of the term 'gay' as a type of slur but without any real venom or malice. But to write it down is to ignore the context. Cold light of day it appears like the form of 'casual homophobia' that is endemic in society "in general" and indeed it is, but those that do it tend not to think of the consequences and so it forms 'general office banter'.
Is it acceptible? well I have also worked with gay people (openly or otherwise) some of whom don't give a stuff and some do. And this is the real issue. chanting, singing and presenting a voice to our support by picking up on a stereotype for our opposition and dengrating that is one way of showing a collective form of 'banter'. Whether or not it becomes racist or homophobic, can in part be down to the context, and that context is subjective depending upon how the individual receives it.
Racism is slightly different as some of it is more 'obvious' to the masses. Unfortunately if the masses live by the lowest common denominator, or are not sufficiently intelligent to understand why what they are saying is racist, then from their perspective they see little problem with it. To them it is harmless, badged under the same umbrella as 'banter'.
I'm not saying any of it is right or wrong (although my personal opinion is that the majority of the negatively focus chants are probably wrong as they support the arguement for 'casualness' about problems that are engrained in society) but you can see how each side will argue their case.
Oh yeah, and sol is a cnut for what he did, so I have no problem in letting him know that taking his metaphorical 'peices of silver' was a bad thing. Because (and this is only my opinion) people should be remembered not for their words but their actions (be it footballer, politician, the person sat next to you, your best mate or the tea boy). But the 'gay' stuff for me doesn't have any relevance and so I don't really get it, for me there is no real context or link to being a two faced git and a 'man lover'. Like I said, just my opinion, but isuspect it loses relevance as the likelihood of him ever coming anywhere near our team any time in the near future is little to none.
It's written in the stars that we'll get Notts County at home in the FA Cup.
Thankyou for your curtious and detailed reply to my post.
I think you said it yourself 'there are moments of brilliance on the terraces ' The trouble is we have to put up with a lot of crass rubbish to get to them.( The humming of the Cambell chant was one such moment)
I agree that we should be bolstering our own players and would like to see some collective effort to do this.
White Hart Lane moves me to tears at times, (but then I'm a silly old fool )
The effect of our supporters cheering our team on has much more effect than the negative stuff.
I do object to the term 'working class' being used as shorthand for crude, ignorant, moronic, what else do you expect, bear with them they don't know any better attitudes. It sells ourselves short .
You entered a minefield there Spooks and almost picked your way through it. I think the Cambell legacy makes such a discussion difficult. Good stuff.
The humming of the Campbell chant.
I forgot to cite this. It was quite brilliant.
Immensely difficult topic to discuss this. Some of the alleged homophobic chants are probably as harmful as stuff as you hear from a comedian on tv. So what's worse? Singing songs about mobile phones or singing about the dead like Utd and Liverpool fans do? And anyone who has had the pleasure of Upton Park will have heard some shocking filth leave their mouths. People seem to find some of the more traditional abuse far more acceptable or at least give the impression it's ok to call someone a c-nt or sing about a brain tumour.
ive always felt 40,000 men signing at each other is a bit gay.
Tis true. People singing, hugging, dancing. it's all a bit like one of those Parades.
"ive always felt 40,000 men signing at each other is a bit gay."
'im not gay', you're an audiphobic homophobe, what do you have against deaf gay men?
LOL
Pardon?
Agree with most of what Spooky says here. There is some brilliant wit on the terraces, some of which sails close to the wind, and that's fine. I just object to a fan's need to call a player taking a throw-in a "filthy gay c*nt" as happened at the Liverpool game in my son's earshot. And before you accuse me of an attack of the middle-class vapours, I'm a scaffolder - but I don't feel that being working class has to mean you're a foul-mouthed lowlife. And of course the large majority of fans, whoever they support, are decent - and I say that despite the fact that I have Gooners, Hammers and Scousers in my extended family. Thankfully no Chelski, though.
I'll retract the working class comment, but I didn't mean it at all as a derogatory way. Some middle class and above fans don't get themselves dirty too often at football games as they take themselves too seriously. This IS a generalisation by the way, so please no attacks on me about how there are plenty of middle class + fans who curse and swear and act like cunts.
Working class dont take themselves too seriously, was sort of my point.
Someone pass me a shovel.
If you have delicate ears, stay away from the Park Lane and the Southern corner of the Shelf. Go to the West stand with the other cardboard cut-outs and let boys be boys. If I had a kid they wouldn't be anywhere near that corner of the ground
Excellent post...re: working class, its a blog, you don't have the benefit of an editor to smooth out the stickyness, don't be too hard on yourself. I think the football ground is the great social equalizer. You've got your seat and you immidiately bond to people in your section no matter your wage packet. I used to go to games with a guy who was a senior level management type. He made well over 1mm a year, you couldn't pick him out of the crowd and he had a right go everytime Judas came to town.
"Rich people are vile and prejudiced too!"
You must be so proud, Timothy. Funny how you defer to The Big Other for justification of course. You feeble child.
IMO, you know what to expect at a football ground - make a choice. It's far better and less prejudice now than it was.
Obviously racist abuse is a complete no-no. With the Ade song, I believe the 1st verse is actually correct. In any case, if it wasn't is it any worse than Berba's version? The bit about the mother is by far the worst part.
If Sol was being called black this or that, or had monkey noises shouted I'd be right behind him complaining. The difference with the songs we sing is we are IMPLYING he is gay. It clearly riles him, and actually exposes his own predjudices.
Rather than complaining, he could have come out (no pun intended) and switched it on us, saying he finds it sad how we have to use the implication he is gay as an insult
He's too busy dancing around it. Even when he made the complaints about the abuse it was first suggested it was racism. He never comes out and just says it because he's quite obviously hiding something.
Pink+Claret+Blue...I do not condone racists or racism nor do I imply that I do. There isn't anything racist about booing and calling a player a Judas for negotiating in bad faith as Sol Cambell did. My point is and was that class systems at a football match aren't a factor in any level. I use TBO because I wanted to use an example of an upper class spectator which I am not (upper class in income that is).. I happily admit to calling Sol Cambell a Judas and booing when he touches the ball and as a representive of the upper middle class there is your full disclosure. Now, if your point was that calling someone a Judas was vile, than I suggest you "harden up" or go on being offended for the rest of your life because I don't think I or anyone else should be forced to lower our sensitivity levels to "paper thin skin" in order to engage in public discourse. Especially someone like yourself who throws insults on chatboards at people whom he can't even understand, let alone know. - Timothy (aka Feeble child)