Hating
Wednesday, July 20, 2011 at 1:08PM I was sent this article (taken from the football365 mailbox section) by an Arsenal fan in peace asking the question the quoted article poses: 'Is it possible that hatred for Man City and Chelsea could ever supersede that of a local rival?'
It struck a chord with him (for reasons apparent in how Chelsea have affected Arsenal in recent years). Does it struck a chord with us? Well obviously it will do - 'Bitter' as we are at the apparent simplicity of being able to compete consistently with the aid of money money money. Sure Chelsea have toned down their spending in comparison to City who are still in a transition and will obviously seek consolidation in the next year or two.
The rest of us (that copyrighted bitterness aside) know that you can hardly compete with a club regardless of the club's unquestionable status prior to winning the lottery if said club are spending the money. They will always sign the better players. It's an easier choice for any prospective signings.
You spend = you show ambition. Relentless and unquestionable and practically unanswerable in terms of said ambition because you can attract any one simply because you are moving in the right direction. Up. it breeds hype and confidence and results.
Let's not be naive about it. A project is always going to best a club that doesn't have the clout on the negotiating table. We're not in the CL, we can't compete wage wise, therefore...see ya. That's very much a broad overview, but if you take a look at some of the signings made by City if we had attempted to step in and compete with them we'd have been brushed aside. You hope the nature of their progression retains an air of instability due to the ego and manner of the foundations being built.
You hope.
They didn't falter last season. Unspectacular and at times with fear to attack, but they got the points. Had we been perhaps more focused, little club Spurs would have taken a further step in breaking the mould and attracting players because of qualification to that compeition.
Personally think Wenger has been cany in the past with their (Arsenal) ability to compete with wages and his shrewd transfer policy, but arguable he has suffered and they are continuing to do so (they appear to be feeding City players at the moment). Although remaining very much competitive, they are not as comfortable as they wish to be.
Here's the article in question:
Hatin'
Jumping on the back of Philip Brady's mail this morning, is it possible that hatred for Man City and Chelsea could ever supersede that of a local rival?
As a youngish Gooner, I waited for 10 years as Arsenal strove to become as good as Manchester United. This was a club that was signing the right players, brining in new dietary and training doctrine, breaking even, not doing a Leeds, recognizing its origins and traditions and gaining momentum through footballing success. We were playing catch up with a club that had had its ups and downs but learnt from its history and overcame its challenges. Man Utd employed and stood by a brilliant manager and had become a formidable machine through its own series successes both on and off the field. A fair fight ensued, one which culminated in Arsenal deservedly becoming United's major challengers towards the end of the 90s and early Naughties and winning in a couple of doubles along the way. So, the future was exciting- 10 years of excellent work by Wenger and Dein et al. had started to pay off and it was time to move to a new stadium and cement our place as a serious contender for years to come.
Then BAM. Chelsea.
Out of nowhere, an overspending, underachieving, upper-mid table outfit gets the deal of a lifetime and subsequently blow Arsenal out of the water.
A comfortable period of transition to the new stadium that we had earned had now become unsustainable as Chelsea bought their way to success in the space of 2 seasons. 10 years earlier and there would have been no Champions League place to soften the blow either.
Now to our North London neighbours.
Through a catalogue of errors with management, player investment and board decisions, Liverpool rightly drop out of the top four. The players, team selections and tactics were all wrong and Liverpool got what they deserved.
No Champions League football. Tottenham, waiting in the wings and the natural heirs to fourth place move up and take their rightful place. Whilst not setting the world on fire, this was where they had deserved to be. For two seasons they had outperformed Liverpool and had earned the right to represent the Premiership in the Champions League. There or there abouts for the past 5 seasons, this was finally a great moment for London and a great moment for Tottenham.
Enter Manchester City.
A pre-packaged sugar daddy's dream club with a shiny, modern new stadium basically handed to them, City became the wealthiest club in the world after a handshake and (no doubt) a few backhanders. Greedily lusting after the Sheikhs millions and having already having made a mockery of the fit and proper persons test with the Shinawatra debacle, they were allowed to prostitute themselves out again and, this time, they made sure it was done properly. Tottenham's second season of outperforming the outgoing member of the big four was lost. Manchester City waltz in and take the glory of Champions League football thus augmenting their ability to sign top quality players (the wages weren't enough at one point) and essentially stealing Tottenham's European revenue stream to boot.
As a Gooner with as much hatred for Chelsea as for anybody else answer me this Tottenham fans- Can you ever hate City as much as you hate Arsenal?
I guess the hate/hate relationship with Arsenal will always remain strong(er) by virtue of history. But there's a hatred that is birthed out of annoyance of the likes of City simply because they are attracting players thanks to their wealth rather than anything else (although I get it, because of their wealth they 'compete' and because of that they are a better option. Cruel cruel world).
Their fans (City) have had it bad in recent years with their yo-yo existence and mis-management so its fantasy football for them to be in this current position of financial power. A club in the shadows can now compete with their dominating neighbour. Why shouldn't they enjoy it? I guess they have a right. Although that underlining arrogance based on luck is what pulls most of us back from patting them on the back.
Clubs like Spurs, we've spent millions but we've done so within our own means. Actually wasted a few million in the process of attempting to climb into the top tier. If we were suddenly 'blessed' with untold riches and able to offer any wage to top top players then power would probably shift back to us if we competed for CL football. Two billionaire clubs become three and so on. Then the power is with the players who can pick and choose based on CL football and which club wishes to pay that extra 100k to claim the signature.
Fair Play Rules might control the insanity (loopholes permitting). Fact is, football is driven by money and immediate feasting on the hunger players have for top tier football. We'll only survive if we consolidate by breaking back into the top four again (as underdogs) and remain there. We're on a knife edge. We can only improve and get stronger by plucking players that are out of scope with the richer teams. But (as witnessed) will always be susceptible to losing them if we can't quite get back into the 'big league'.
I guess I do hate the arrogance that oozes from the likes of City and Chelsea but then again, that same arrogance has always been strong with the Arsenal and Man Utd. Except both are now having to fight pound for pound season in and season out.
Until the state of flux the top tier is currently in is levelled out, we'll have to wait and see. Potential for another 'monopoly' to be birthed. Or perhaps a five/six way team battle royale. Hopefully the latter.
Ironically, if 'we' become part of 'it', we become part of the thing we love to hate. But the silver lining is that we do so without cutting corners. As much as I hate Arsenal for being Arsenal they've challenged without the necessity to lift a passing skirt up and blow their load on anything that moves.
Chelsea got themselves in a competitive position. They then consolidated thanks to the untold riches and attracted a manager who arrived because of said untold riches. City, same thing, but more spending and quite possibly still requiring a manager upgrade. We'll see.
That's modern football. Ah diddums and all that. But I still hate Arsenal more. It would be completely ungentlemanly for me not too and I would be quite disappointed if they hated on someone else more.
Reader Comments (94)
And you could have a good go at winning back those Cockney Reds who would rather travel half way round the country every week to watch a game of footy than hang around north London having their Ipod taxed off them by some hoodie lowlife.
What amuses me is when you get City fans trying to justify themselves. Seemingly resorting to life isn't fair as their primary defence.
Some walk up to these city fans and smack them in the mouth in the street, steel their wives, live in their house because they'll understand. They won't seek justice. They appreciate life isn't fair.
Royspur - I do have some idea. I was raised in Islington and a lot of my mates were Arsenal fans so I'm more than familiar with local rivalry. My suggestion is that while such emotions exist, and maybe stronger against specific clubs, if Arsenal were consistently at the lower end of the table and winning nothing whilst you were playing in the champions league and winning trophies, I doubt the history would be uppermost in your mind.
From the responses, my theory still holds - love and hate both can give pleasure. A Spurs fan will love it if Spurs win and love it if Arsenal lose. If these two are combined in one match then they will feel happy for weeks.
So Spurs and Arsenal will always be closely linked together and will have a greater chance of creating pleasure for the other club that CFC or MCFC, who they are largely indifferent to and hence do not gain so much pleasure from, if CFC or MCFC lose.
Conversely there will be greater pain if, for a Spurs fan, if Spurs lose and Arsenal win. But that's life...
Paul F - Always amuses me to see a club extol their own Corinthian spirit amid the brash commercialism of the Premier League. Villa fans tried it last season, looks like it's your turn this season. Spotting any common ground? You'd better hope you don't lose Modric and Bale and end up spiralling downwards any further like them.
Spurs have spent huge money and have sod all to show for it, apart from the CL equivalent of a giant-killing cup run last season. Now the bitterness kicks in. It doesn't really matter a jot how you earned your money - whether by ripping off your fans for extortionate ticket prices, or having someone pump money into the club...
As for you "painstakingly, slowly, carefully building a really good team".. that's a classic, you went through managers like TV dinners, you've bought almost every player you've got, then 'Arry somehow managed to blend the whole mess together into a team for 18 months.. Get off your moral high horse, it's laughable..
spooky -just seen your reply......cheers
So it's fed elsewhere...fair dos....still doesn't explain their sadness for taking the time to reply, let alone look at the thing!
Everybody likes talking about us...we should be flattered really.
Jeremy Poynton - yes but we earnt that money. I think we all agree that a lot of it was spent foolishly but that's another discussion altogether!
Howsit All, Gooner in peace here.
All of the hard work, effort and sacrifice by both clubs has been in vain. Arsenal now have Utd, Chelsea AND City to compete with as well as yourselves and a resurgent Liverpool (also spending millions they don't have). It will only take one more billionaire take over of someone like Villa/Everton/Newcastle to edge us out of the top four and keep Sp*rs further away than ever.
We spend 80% of our summer fending off other clubs interest in players we have made into stars, clubs who without their lottery win wouldn't even be looked at by said players. This constant summer attack means we have less time to concentrate on our own squads shortcomings meaning not only are we financially handicapped but time handicapped also.
No teams can simply compete with the financial might of City/Chelsea when they flew their wallets. So as much as their is a history and ancient rivalry between both clubs we are also both fighting the good fight and trying to be proper football clubs doing things the right way. That in itself is a positive development in the traditional bitter acrimony both sets of fans have shown towards each other.
Don't get me wrong I'll never like Spu*s but grudging respect for what you are trying to achieve and how you are going about it is a start.
The fact of life as I currently see it is Arsenal and Sp*rs are trying to ice skate up hill and eventually your going to falter at some stage.
On another note, the World's Oil Reserves run out in 42 years.
I could never tell the difference between United and Arsenal fans before, now Tottingham fans are basically the same, so a merger seems the logical way to go - it's the only way you'll be able to compete with City and Chelsea's unfair spending power.
Well said Scotch Eggs Rule,
only by pooling your resources can you hope to keep apace with the competition - you are surely doomed to a bleak future of mediocrity if left to your own devices.
I would have nothing to do with West Ham 'tho, they are a proper bunch of Cockney Tw@ts and no mistake.
Prestwick Blue.
How's this for honesty, you are buying the title and probably the CL trophy. But you think that's no reason for anyone to disagree with it.
It's not City's fault., Right
Oooooooh Right Okay.
Arsenal - hated but grudingly respected rival
Chelsea - feel nothing but contempt for this club, from their theft-on-a-continental-scale owner, to their repellant fans, not forgetting the players who manage to personify all of the worst sterotypes of modern footballers, special shout out for Drogba the diving bully and Terry/Lampard comedy team (because making crashing airplane noises at American tourists the day after 9/11/01 is soooo funny) whose "i'm a chav and i'm proud" behavior should be an embarassment to the whole country (compared to the demeanor and behavior of, oh, Dawson and Huddlestone.) Really, there isn't a single aspect of Chelsea that does not disgust me.
Man City- aggravating and annoying as hell, but despite last season, still can't quite take them seriously, given that Arsenal and ourselves seemed determined to throw away as many points as possible last spring. Maybe I'm in denial.
My hatred for Arsenal has waned over recent seasons, probably due to a decline for them and a step up for us, however, they still maintain some very unlikable characters. Wenger's blind arrogance and self styled superiority are without compare and Jack Wilshere has emerged as the kind of guy who starts fights with girls and spits at cab drivers, a proper little chav prick. I also dislike RVP and Nasri, however, I have a new found respect for Arsenal in general because they do things generally in the manner in which they are intended. Success built from hard work.
I also pretty much hate Man Utd, I still respect them for the same reasons as I respect Arsenal but our games against them in recent years always end in a farce of questionable refereeing decisions and that's becoming a theme that I detest as it appears unfair (whether this judgement is clouded or not).
As for Chelsea and City, maybe I am jealous, who wouldn't like to suddenly be handed a shit load of money? The answer is no-one. But it's this that breeds contempt as the feeling that they haven't really earned it is what grates on rival supporters. Do they deserve it? Probably not. Is that going to change anything? Definitely not. So we probably should just deal with it and continue to do things the best way we can. Spurs will gain more respect in the long run by acting in this manner anyway.
There is such a cross section of fans at every club and god knows we fight amongst ourselves enough as it is. I find it better to judge the fans of clubs on the supporters which have something to say that actually makes sense. Otherwise we'd all be reading the comments on the Sun website and posting stuff like "Goons are all twats lol". Moronic drivel.
Personally I think the bigger atrocity is that Man City and Chelsea's owners have essentially made their billions by raping their countries of their natural resources, but that's a totally different issue altogether.
Scotcheggsrule,
didn't see your post before I posted, but nicely summarized assessment of our shared challenges.
WinterWeekend61,
"the World's Oil Reserves run out in 42 years."...Reasons to be cheerful. I guess.
I like how while I was writing my bit Scotcheggs and Winterweekend post containing stuff I was thinking about. Nice one!
Tribal posturing which you should all have grown out of after adolescence.
Other clubs fan's are just as varied as our own.
Some are like me, knowledgeable, astute, know a good player when they see one: some are completely embarrasiong saddoes,(ever been to WHL?)
They are just locked into an historical, family accident which unfortunately can't be broken.
Have some compasssion.
At least we support a club that has a history and a tradition and standards that can be maintained.
What do they have?
Jul 20, 2011 at 4:21 PM | Canada Yid
lol Sorry fella!
Yeah Jimmy! What did the Roman ever do for us!?
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/mancini-to-buy-entire-arsenal-squad-for-a-laugh-201107184087/
As per Fox Mulder's comment - Spurs splashing cash they actually EARN on players is different to having a sugar daddy splash the cash for you.
It's like being given an inheritance when a relation dies. You can either be sensible with it and make it last, but not buy such overpriced goods, or you can just say to hell with it and spend it on something that looks good but has no depth to it.
Spurs can't be chastised for have a transfer spend that is a small percentage of what is brought in via sales. Granted, we should probably have more to show for it, but then on the same account, for City to justify spending so much, they should be winning the PL & CL for the next 5-10 years.........
When the Sheikh eventually gets bored, he's going to have trouble selling City on to a new buyer because the price of the club and the fact that their expenditure will dramatically out weigh their income.
And the least said about doing a sponsorship deal for £400 million with a family member the better.
Had they been speaking to Bryan Robson?????
Sod it, I dislike City FAR more than Chelsea.........
WinterWeekend61 - He gave us loads of money, Jose Mourinho and several trophies....... oh, wait a minute, you meant those other Romans didn't you?
no problem with us each hating each others clubs,its a great rivalry with alot of spice and nothing compares to beating you lot !,but the hate thing about the fans (both clubs) i dont get,your mum could be a gooner my dad could be a spud,brothers ,wives,sisters,uncles,cousins, you know what i mean etc,i know some great spud supporters, just like i know some gooners i would not give the time of day to! and i can honestly say ive never had a word in anger with any of you lot, just good honest friendly banter and long may it contihue. i would also like to say! i hate plenty of other teams(the usual suspects)and respect them apart from ,the chavs and citeh,i hope uefa have the balls to properly run and police the financial fair play rules so these two gatecrashers go back to where they belong,mediocre.
I don't hate anyone who can be reasonable and fair. The account of Tottenham's 4th place in 2010 is just that. Engaging rivals for their opinion is also welcome.
As a life long spurs fan, I enjoy a bit of banter; but people who really hate, and worse, act it out with violence, are the real wankers -- even the ones who support Tottenham. Football is a sport not a war.
Arsenal fans. I'd hate for you to hate anyone else more.
That is when I'll admit to jealousy.
Man City were the best team in England, possibly Europe, in the late sixties/early seventies.
Therefore, I postulate, this is the position City "deserve" to be at, although you could substitute the dates and name for Spurs, and the argument would be watertight.
Back to where we belong, Karma is balancing out nicely, the natural order of things is settling down again.
If you think this theory is a pile of pants, I suggest you re-read most of the idiotic drivel posted by both Spuds and Arse fans alike, you make me look like fucking Aristotle :)
Hahaha! You can postulate all you want mate, based on that logic Nottingham Forest deserve to be in the top four and they're where you'd be without your Sheik right now.
Do me a fucking favour, you've certainly twisted our melons, man.
Good point my man,
Forest are obviously more deserving of success than Spurs and the Arse put together.
Impeccable logic.
I will always and forever want to beat Arsenal but I respect them and their manager for what they have achieved over the past 15 years or so. They play great football and have a board that has steered them to the top echelons of the PL and built a big new stadium while continuing to compete at the top every season, unlike our own board.
I must admit my "hatred" of them has been watered down by the emergence of Chelsea and Man City, two clubs that i cannot respect as they have achieved nothing by organic growth and everything by being lottery winners.
That's football today but I hope we can maintain our integrity and still compete by finding a better management team that can recruit and play the best young players deployed in modern tactical formations until we too can generate the income stream by consolidating a position at the top of the League every season.
This "love-in" between you Spuds and Gooners is frankly sickening, give your heads a wobble and have a word with yourselves.
How can you sleep at nights?
Arsenal - I do hate them but I have far more respect for how they have achieved what they have achieved under Wenger, and how they play, than I do for Chelsea & City
I really resent the success of City & Chelsea because it is 100% bought. every club needs to spend to win but their buying power is nothing to do with their success on and off the pitch, its all to do with the wealth of their owners.
Spurs Arsenal and United wouldf justifiably be contesting the top spots, based on their own "organic" growth (hate that term!)
But such is life.....I spent a few games a few seasons ago watching from a box at WHL when I injured myself and could not sit in my ST seat. I met with a freind who works in the hospitality bit of WHL and she pointed out to me in the players lounge 2 people who own boxes at WHL, both of which were lottery winners . One acted like a proper billy big balls twat!
So its not necessarily CFC/City fans fault for their cash windfall, but it is how you deal with it and behave. So far 90% of city fans are pretty humble, but that may change as they pick up some big trophies over time. on the other hand 90% of CFC fans act like the billy big balls I saw at WHL. Gobby arrorgant pricks!
Begs the question what would Spurs fans be like if we had a Roman. I am not sure that many would maintain a humble nature. We are already disliked for having ideas above our station and I can only think that some y!ds would become unbearable if we could back up our percieved arrorgance with success
As a yank supporter who didn't grow up supporting Tottenham, I can fairly say that I hate Gooners for their arrogance and pseudo-longsuffering petulance. They remind me of Boston Red Sox fans who I hate more than any other fans in any sport known to man. Arsenal's current squad and manager are too hilarious/laughable to hate. I do appreciate the comedy value that they provide. All said I have some respect for Arsenal as a whole.
I have no respect for Chelsea or City. They are gloryhunting scum.
What is nice, is that some of the opposition fans have taken the time to come here and comment, each, seemingly, with the respective eloquence which is representative of their club (or at least a minority in some cases). Clearly didn't bother reading the article of course, but can't expect too much at first now can we.
As I come from a family divided, white and red, I have always seen it as different sides of the same coin. The good cannot be deemed good without the bad and it gave context and passion to the NLD for me that was more than just football.
But, tbf, as much as I have enjoyed recent years I find their fall from grace (as the media are presiding over currently) quite a frightening prospect for the wider game. As that context of 'passion' has been replaced with 'business' and 'financial firepower'. I've also found the goons in the main (the older ones at least) to be more enlightened than the majority of their Chav counterparts. But like them? they made their bed as far as I am concerned.
Oddly enough City fans I used to have an affinity (similar to Everton) as both are veiwed as 'underdogs' to a more dominant neighbour, and so in some ways we're not too different to us. I do still admire what Moyes has done for everton.
But one thing is abundantly clear, is that for all the historical self-deprecating fans that many clubs have (who to an extent are the silent majority in blogging terms), my god there are a lot of (younger) glory hunting idiots who have internet access and confuse 'vitriol' with 'banter'.
When the money's gone, both plastic clubs will fall back to where they belong, much like Blackburn have. They're not big clubs and never will be, just big budgets that aren't self-sufficient, they will never ever be respected by the wider football community.
I'm not bitter or jealous, just sickened and disgusted at what they're doing to our beautiful game.
As for the scum, it's a rivalry deeper than anyones pockets.
COYMFS...
I enjoy "hating" Arsenal and the rivalry/banter that goes with it. For me it's based on history and tradition more than anything else.
I also think all clubs have their own elements of idiot fans who make it slightly easier to actually hate another football team.
City and Chelsea I take with a pinch of salt, you have to. You can't blame them for changing football, that's just the way it is. Chelsea were starting to win trophies before the Russian got involved, and lets be honest he looked at Spurs as well, would we have not liked Chelsea's success?
And City will put the glory hunting Man U fans in their place over the next few years, which in itself serves a purpose.
Is it all sustainable for those two? Probably not but I haven't got a crystal ball and who knows what tomorrow brings: European Super League maybe?
But for me it's all about Tottenham Hotspur FC v Arsenal. Most coming on here will have some memories of these games - (good and bad of course) good as being proved by the Spurs Wars seen on here recently.
Personally I can hardly remember any City games which much feeling of "I was there", and while I do enjoy Chelsea and West Ham derbies, they just don't do the same for me as when we beat the Red part of North London.
And does anybody look for the Man City game first when the fixtures come out??
cfc, im gonna smash you like a ginger step kid!
Diaz, wish I could forget that FA Cup match against City. We went in at the half up 3 nil, Joey Barton got himself sent off at half time i.e. off the pitch smartarsery to the ref. Against 10 man City, we still managed to lose 4-3. Strange match, first half was thrilling, graced by the return of Christian Ziege who scored with one of the sweetest free kicks you'll ever see. Second half was like the movie Aliens: This aint happening. Dear lord jesus, this can't be happening.
But to your point, that is the only one that sticks in my mind.
One rule that I stand by: Hate Chelsea no matter who they are playing, except when they're playing Arsenal.
oh man i remember that 4-3 loss. what a nightmare game that was. still ranks as one of the lowest (if not the lowest) points of my spurs following career.
gary doherty was playing in defence. shudder.
know i am getting old but i find it really sad that players like bellamy (the player not the character) / onouha /wayne bridge /micheal johnson are playing at staleybridge for citys third x1 - cant see how city fans refuse to see they are not a club anymore...just a commodity......hey we hate them but good luck to arsenal if it keeps man city from CL.....i would have said good luck to us but harry has convinced me we are not a big club and luka deserves better !....
ziegemonster, funny how I have blocked that game from my memory!!
Think I watched it on the TV and yeah had the "only Spurs" feeling.
A friend loves watching Spurs (he supports QPR) for the simple fact he says you never know what will happen next. I love that about our club.
If it means Arsenal not playing in the CL then good luck City
gotta love City fans, fingers in their ears/eyes closed repeating to themselves "you´re all jealous - you´re all jealous"
I stood on terraces with Arse friends and enjoyed the banter as early as 1960 - going to one another's games, even. Before that I would swap punches in the playground after the NLD ..... at a school right on the fault line. Now, all is changed. No-one goes to see other teams any more - you can't buy a ticket and you are usually watching your own team away on Sky ..... I think that I have to admire the way Arse managed the money and built, but ask why Wenger couldn't have built a real local team rather than a French one, and have learned to occasionally see what really goes on on the pitch rather than what he wants to see - he really is a big twat. Also, modern Arse fans are often Johnny-come-latelys, who didn't even have to think before they bought a gooners shirt; when Liverpool get back, they will all jump ship, and THEY will drop out of the top four. They will go down like us, unless they change their policies and spend big, and pretend that they believed in money all along. If, by then, we have built the Northumberland Park Development, maybe even that will not be enough.
Lots of other things too ...... Wenger will DIE one day; the oil (and the gas) will run out for Citeh and Chelsea, and then no one will really want to fly to Dubai/St Petersburg unless these Arabs/Mafia bosses work out some grown up ways to spend their unearned Trillions. Abramovic will be selling the Big issue outside Division 2 Stamford Bridge, and Citeh of Manchester Stadium will be used for stock car racing and Oasis tribute bands which nobody will want to see. Old red nose will be in rehab, and the yanks will have failed to pay off their borrowings; United will merge with Stalybridge Celtic, and the Premier League will go part-time .......... oh, I could go on ........ Nothing is for ever ......... chortle
BUT I WILL STILL HATE THE ARSE (though nicely)